IDPA Rules

[Poohgyrr]

FWIW, a while back, some folks would just dump the old mag on the ground no matter what, grab the fresh mag and insert it. then they would bend down and pickup the old mag, stowing it somewhere. This was also called a reload w/ retention....... IIRC, this is frowned on now..

 

[2speed]

--"I think the reason to do Tac Loads on the clock is to introduce stress. Whether the Nationals or a gunfight, even if there is the proverbial "lull in the action" you are not going to be calm, cool and collected. (Well, I'm not, and I have been to all the Nationals and no gunfights.) Reloading on the clock puts pressure on you to do it right the first time."--

I think Jim Watson has hit the nail on the head!

I don't like the TL or RWR so I don't practice them as much as I should. :banghead:

Therefore, when I have to do them in a match the stress goes way up!

What I try to do, if there are enough targets, you can "make up points dropped" real fast and then you "have" to reload from slidelock.

This is real easy to do with a 1911, 8rnds; not so easy with a HP, 10rnds.

 

[braindead0]

Luckily my club doesn't do many COF's with any required reload techniques, nor do we worry about holsters and guns (wife shoots a ported tracker). We try to keep it as fun as possible, and good practice is a desired side affect.

 

[Gunfyter]

Ok then, here's a question for those of you who have most likely seen it. In my first match this past Saturday, one stage was clearing a two room house. Three BG's in each room. Each BG to be shot three times. With my trusty Kimber in hand I first loaded one round from a spare mag and then put in an 8 round mag. This allowed me to shoot the first room and go to slide lock. New 8 round mag, shoot two BG's the required three times and the last BG two times. Slide lock once again, reload and shoot last BG one time. So at the first reload, why can't I load a 10 round mag with 9 rounds or take one loose round, load it and then an 8 round mag? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Jim Watson]

On the first REload, after having shot to slidelock?
If your Kimber is a .45 you are in CDP and are limited to 8 rounds in the magazine. So you may not reload with a magazine containing nine.
Load a loose round and then load an eight round mag? I guess that would be ok under the letter of the rule, but not under the spirit and intention and not real practical. Hard on the extractor of your gun, too. Bite the bullet and reload when the gun is empty.

 

[Prodigalshooter]

My understanding is that you insert a full (8) magazine, rack the slide, eject magazine and replace with a full fresh one. Thus 9 in the gun to start. I was told that this is how we're supposed to begin a stage, always loaded to the "standard" maximum round count, using standard magazine. Isn't that what you guys are doing?

Of course, I'm talking CDP here, in SSP you'd probably have, say, a Glock with a 10 round mag, so you'd start with one in the chamber and a full ten round mag. Yes? No?

 

[braindead0]

The person designing the COF can specify almost anything, but I'm pretty sure the rules allow for topping up before starting a stage.. but it's not required (unless the COF designer requires it).

Bear in mind that COF's are supposed to be 6round revolver friendly, if I were shooting revolver on that I'd either:

A) put 2 into each target, reload from cover and put in 3.. then proceed to the next room and put one in each.. or
B) If the targets are visible one at a time from cover (which is probably the case), 3 and 3 then reload... and get the last one.

 

[Owen]

2speed, there is a name for dumping rounds to get to slide lock....FTDR!

That technique clearly violates the spirit of the game, and therefore may carry a 20 second penalty.

Braindead, Topping off is required for any stage where it may make a difference.

Gunfyter, explain to the RO what you are up to, and s/he may allow the 9 round mag, instead of topping off. BUT YOU BETTER ONLY HAVE 9 ROUNDS TOTAL IN THE GUN.

owen

 

[MoNsTeR]

owen,
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, but it's not at all clear to me how dumping rounds to get to slide lock violates the spirit of the game.

 

[Owen]

See Page 41 of the 5-2-01 Rule Book.

"
ON STAGES REQUIRING A TACTICAL OR SLIDE LOCK LOAD, CAN I DUMP ROUNDS DOWN RANGE SO I WILL BE ABLE TO RELOAD BY A FASTER METHOD/MORE CONVENIENT LOCATION? YES, however you will receive a "Failure to do Right" penalty for the stage for not negotiating the course in the spirit of the contest"

Look at it this way, In a confrontation, would you shoot a BG an extra time (pick up points) just to have a more convenient reload? Or if you are more sophisticated, would you hit a bg poorly, so you could shoot him again, and get to a more convenient reload.

owen

 

[Prodigalshooter]

I think he means that if you are to shoot three on each target, shooting extra rounds just to go to slide lock (we're assuming you've had good hits on targets) and reload is not what you'd do in a real threat situation. In a real life gunfight, if you had two of four bad guys down, you wouldn't shoot the down guys a couple extra times to go to slide lock, right? You'd be needing those rounds to deal with the next two BGs. That's where it becomes "gaming". Same as people you see not using cover, in a real shoot out you'd be trying to get as covered as you could, but a lot of folks jump out and blaze away, which does make it easier to shoot a stage, but it's not in the spirit of the competition, which is to simulate an armed encounter, as close as possible.

Oh, Happy 4th everyone!

 

[MoNsTeR]

Sure, you're not going to empty your gun thinking "if I put two more rounds in these guys, I can do a slide-lock reload". You're going to empty your gun thinking "OH #$(^ OH %$# OH %@#$". That is, shooting to slidelock will be, and probably should be, your instinctual response.

To put it another way, is it any less artificial i.e. "gamey" to put a fixed, arbitrary number of rounds on each target? Again referencing "real gunfights", are you going to put 3 rounds on each of these bad guys because... it's a nice round number or what? Never mind that in a gunfight, these hypothetical bad guys aren't just going to stand there and get shot...

It seems to me that "wasting" 2 rounds on targets that have already been theoretically neutralized so that you can reload in a way that won't get you killed is more "realistic" than insisting on saving a mag with 2 rounds in it.

 

[Owen]

Its a game, and those are the rules. It is clearly stated in the rule book. Intentionally violating the rules to gain an advantage is an FTDR.

owen

 

[MoNsTeR]

"Those are the rules" is a non-argument. I thought we were talking about the "spirit of the game", which is something that can never be captured in the letter of any rule. Anyone can read a rulebook, it seemed to me that this discussion was about the rhyme & reason behind the rules.

 

[faustulus]

Look at it this way, In a confrontation, would you shoot a BG an extra time (pick up points) just to have a more convenient reload? Or if you are more sophisticated, would you hit a bg poorly, so you could shoot him again, and get to a more convenient reload.

No you would dump the mag on the ground and throw in a fresh one and not worry about the fallen mag. But that would be like IPSC and we don't want any of that now do we?

That being said it is almost impossible for the RO to call a FTDR on dumping rounds, but that is another problem with IDPA, it relies to heavily on subjective decisions by the refs.

it seemed to me that this discussion was about the rhyme & reason behind the rules.

Bill Wilson & Co. wanted to make sure there was nothing with even a hint of IPSC in this game. Hence many of the rules are not about what you can do but what you can't do. The game is structured to make everyone shoot exactly alike.

 

[another okie]

As relative beginner at IDPA myself I would say relax and have fun. If you break a rule it's not the end of the world, unless it's a safety rule. You're not likely to win no matter what.

As far as the particular issue in question here, you are not just allowed to top off at the start, you are required to in any Vickers count string requiring a reload. Rule 14, page 32. This means most stages.

Probably the best way to handle the scenario you describe is to reload between targets in the second room, remembering to reload behind cover. I notice the scenario calls for a minimum of 18 rounds, which puts CDP at a little disadvantage compared to SSP. That 's why in theory you don't compete against everyone, just the folks in your own division.

Personally I would like to see less emphasis on making everything revolver friendly, which is probably how they came up with the 18 rounds. Almost no one in any of the IDPA clubs I've shot at uses a revolver, and those that do use totally impractical revolvers and reload methods anyway, so why bother with keeping it so the revolvers can be "practical." I've never met anyone who carries a S & W 625 in .45 ACP and three moon clips around all day.