Illegal Immigration-How to fix it?

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Hi CAnnoneer-

We're absolutely on the same page in terms of hitting the scumbag employers of illegal immigrants in the pocketbook and letting them cool their heels in prison for a couple months. We need to pinch both sides of the economic equation.

I'm convinced the minefield solution wouldn't require the 100 million mines as you specified. Depending on how the grid was planned, some could be toepoppers and others would be powerful enough to overturn the bulldozer you mentioned. Illegal immigrants would just need to realize their likelihood of surviving an attempted border crossing are extremely dim. Coyotes would go out of business virtually overnight after news spread of increased American fortitude. Maintenance costs would be extremely minimal.

The attention span of a typical Soccer Mom is that of a brief media soundbite. Once the Mexicans get the notion we're as serious as a heart attack with regard to this topic...they'll stop reducing themselves to red mist and the soundbites will no longer be an issue. Something absurd will happen on American Idol and those not living in Condition Yellow will return to their glassy-eyed gaze into the television. Just my $.02 on the situation.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Mineclearing was solved more than 70 years ago. It is not that you cannot clear a field, it is that meanwhile somebody will shoot you full of holes. Unless the minefield is combined with inhuman sniper teams posted every 300 meters, defeating the field would be trivial.

P.S. Sorry for the crappy pic - that's all I could find quickly. Just look for D-day contraptions.
 

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Aren't minefields a bit passe'? Why not automated high-energy lasers that sweep a border zone and zap the "unwelcome?"

But, seriously, my point is that fantasizing about what kind of technology we're going to employ misses the grim political reality of the situation, and that is that there is no political support in D.C. for ANY kind of serious border deterrent or enforcement. The new buzzword is a "virtual wall," which means watching the illegals come over the border--you know, like counting sheep--without really doing anything about it.

It is precisely because the soccer moms just don't want any trouble that they'll keep cutting deals, appeasing, and incrementally retreating until one day they wake up and find that neither they nor soccer dad has a job and the glorious days of mall mania and mesmerism are kaput. The people who really want to do something to stop the flood aren't soccer mom types, they're not even soccer dad types. They will rise like the repressed nightmares of four decades of drunken sleep.
 
A solution.

A solution that many will find unpalpatable but effective: Build the fence. Motion sensors set periodically with Border Patrol and National Guard ready to respond to alarms. Arrest and return to Mexico. If they resist, plant a few and word will spread that it's best to cooperate.

The real problem is that our government, on both sides of the aisle, have sold out to the mantra of corporate profits and global community. Bull. Companies have made money for a long time by paying decent wages for good work. Suddenly that's no good? Companies are posting higher profits than ever on the lowest wages seen in recent memory. As for the global community line, if I wanted another cultural influence in my life, I'd vacation of move there.
 
What can you say?

most news reporting agencies won't speak of these things...

and without that particular "delivery vehicle" to broadcast it most sheeple just don't care...its not important enough to be on the news, then it must not be important...


D
 
Here's the text of the article

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=papers&code=06-D_18

The Mexican solution

(Washington, D.C.): The Congress has received lots of free advice lately from Mexican government officials and illegal aliens waving Mexico's flag in mass demonstrations coast-to-coast. Most of it takes the form of bitter complaints about our actual or prospective treatment of immigrants from that country who have gotten into this one illegally - or who aspire to do so.

If you think these critics are mad about U.S. immigration policy now, imagine how upset they would be if we adopted an approach far more radical than the bill they rail against which was adopted last year by the House of Representatives - namely, the way Mexico treats illegal aliens.

In fact, as a just-published paper by the Center for Security Policy's J. Michael Waller points out, under a constitution first adopted in 1917 and subsequently amended, Mexico deals harshly not only with illegal immigrants. It treats even legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and foreign investors in ways that would, by the standards of those who carp about U.S. immigration policy, have to be called "racist" and "xenophobic."

Mexico's Glass House

For example, according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:

* Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

* Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."

* Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

* Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

In accordance with Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy, either.

* Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."

* Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

* The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."

The Bottom Line

As the immigration debate in the Senate moves into a decisive phase this week, legislators who believe America's southern border must be secured, the Nation's existing immigration laws enforced and illegal aliens not rewarded with permanent residency and a direct path to citizenship are being sharply criticized and, in some cases, defamed as bigots and xenophobes. Yet, even their maximalist positions generally pale in comparison with the treatment authorized by the Mexican constitution.

So the next time such legislators - and the majority of Americans for whom they speak - are assaulted by Mexican officials, undocumented aliens waving Mexican flags in mass demonstrations here in the United States, clergy and self-described humanitarians, businessmen and other advocates of illegal immigration ask them this: Would they favor having the U.S. impose the same restrictions on immigrants - legal and illegal - that Mexico imposes on their counterparts there?

Nothing of the kind is in the cards, of course. Nor should it be. Legal immigration and the opportunity for foreign investors and other nationals legitimately to contribute to this country are not only one of its hallmarks; they are among the reasons for its greatness.

Still, we should not allow the hypocrisy of others' treatment of undocumented aliens in their countries to induce us to refrain from taking effective steps to prevent further illegal immigration: by building a fence along our southern border; by enforcing immigration laws in the workplace and elsewhere; and by discouraging more such violations - with potentially grave national security implications - by dealing effectively with those who have already broken those laws by coming here without permission.
 
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS POST

This kind of thing has bothered me for years, when I lived in Ireland It was nearly impossible for me to work, yet we have tons of em here.
(plenty of work in Ireland too)

I want reciprocity, full reciprocity. If I can't work in your country you shouldn't work in mine!

What would happen to me if I was caught sneaking into Mexico?
 
Well if you read correctly it also denies basic rights to Legal immigrants which if were true in this country would eliminate a lot of good people including probably many here.

Mexico is a God forsaken place to live.
Be careful about wishing to be like them.

Only way to stop it is to eliminate the jobs that bring them here along with free health care and education.

On the other hand can you blame a person who is born into a helpless situation trying to get out of it?
After all isn't that what America is all about? Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free?

The problem as I see it is our elected Government's failure to enforce current laws which to my understanding is against the oath they take when appointed to office.

We have failed as a people to control our own elected government, choosing rather to ignore the situation until it has become a crisis situation.

Its way past time to take back our government...........................
 
I suggest that some think in terms of percentage solutions rather than absolute. Killing people; men, women, and children; is not going to happen. Those thinking in terms of economic disincentives are on the right track in my opinion.
 
FWIW,blacks in Mexico are often made to pull over and prove that they are Mexican citizens,not illegals from Panama.
No matter how bad illegal immigration gets here,I don't want us to cross that line again.
 
I don't see any solution without a complete change within the Mexican socio-economic system. A move away from Socialism.

What are they actually exporting? Answer: Poverty. They create people faster than they create jobs for those people. The existing economy of Mexico is unable to subsidize the people of the lower strata of the economic pyramid such that "welfare money" there equals our minimum or low wages in the US.

And I really don't think they'll change. They're in love with that Revolucion that's been their national illusion since 1910...

Art
 
What are they actually exporting? Answer: Poverty.


Yes. And Vincente Fox ALLOWS it. While they defend their lower border with military, he's all too happy to let his poor leak into the US so he doesn't have to deal with them.

It's about like if you loaded a truck with yard waste and leaves and drove around fast with the tailgate down, so it'd all 'accidentally' blow out and you'd not have to pay the dump to get rid of it.

And let's see. We're exporting high-paying skilled jobs that require degrees and decent-paying skilled manufacturing jobs, and we're importing poverty.
That can't end well.
 
I think Kodiaz got it right on the first page.

Send the CEO or owner to jail for 2 years and the person who did the direct hiring. Fines paid by a faceless company won't have the same effect as the foreman and the CEO sharing a jail cell. The employement of undocumented workers would come to a near halt.

To make the functional trainsition implement a 'guest worker' program like many other countries have. This allows for inexpensive labor to come into the country and documents them so that all the required fees and taxes can be selected.

Use this as the centerpiece of organized letter writing campaigns, public meetings, email campaigns, etc. and you might get some traction. Try to get it passed on the local and state level so that communities and whole states get it in place quickly and more easily than on the national level.
 
Yes, a well-controlled guest-worker program on annual or semi-annual quotas with untamperable IDs AND severe fines AND deportation of illegals AND no anchor babies rule AND jail time for employer offenders are the answer.

Maybe after a long time on the guest-worker program, something can be done about citizenship.

If creating an underclass is irresistible to big money, at least minimize the damage by making it a temporary one.

Let's ask ourselves what the fundamental difference is between the US and Mexico. Why is it that Tijuana is an abject poverty cesspool just a few miles off blooming San Diego? Is it racial? No way - look at America. Is it natural-resource based? No way - they have everything they need, and more. So what is it? My answer - our determination to have meaningful laws and to enforce them. When lawlessness and corruption are rampant, we would turn into Mexico. That is why saying things like "legal/illegal does not matter" is so scary.
 
And let's see. We're exporting high-paying skilled jobs that require degrees and decent-paying skilled manufacturing jobs, and we're importing poverty.
That can't end well.
__________________

Correct, short term it constitutes money for the top help of our country, long term ,disaster. getting those in power off the money train is like kicking a crack habit.
 
You don't bid against low bidders because as soon as he goes out of business, there will be two to replace him.

Locking drug dealers up does not cut off the flow of drugs, or even cut significantly into the availability of drugs.

Locking up business owners, many of whom will have followed the law, will result in new business owners replacing sleeping foreman with immigrants.

As soon as immigration becomes as easy as it should be, they will all be legal, and the whole problem will go away.

And THAT is the real solution. Fortunately, our leaders understand this.

After all, it's the "illegal" part you guys are ranting about, right? :D

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. :cool:
 
MadMag said:
To the point of the original question.

I am normally positive, but things look pretty bad. The only thing worse than the Republican plan is the Democratic plan. If there was ever a time for an independent candidate…. now is the time.

Bush says as part of the new plan that the border will be sealed. That will never happen. Just talk.

So, the only solution I see is a strong independent. I am prepared to vote independent even at the risk of losing to the Dem or Republicans.

Well MadMag, I think you've really hit on why Americans still work within a two-party system. It has long been the illusion of choice designed to maintain the status quo. When the Republicans and Democrats are both pushing bad plans, who do you turn to?

For so long, people have been treating elections like horse races. They don't seem to realize that the lesser of two evils is still evil. I remember the debates here about why we should vote for Bush simply to avoid Kerry. Now, we are looking at a president who has clearly put the interests of business (some of which make him a lot of money) over the interests of his people. Many of us saw this coming, but were unable to sway people because they didn't want to bet on a losing horse. It didn't click with them that ANY vote cast is not wasted UNLESS you cast it against yourself. Americans have been shooting themselves in the foot for years because of this "lesser of two evils" nonsense.

Folks, the only way to implement reform is to actually bring in someone with new ideas. Voting for the same party year after year and expecting a different result is insane. Continuing to pump your vote into the Good Ol Boy network we call congress and the senate will ALWAYS get the same result. Don't you think its time to actually try to implement change?

So many of us have written letters, sent e-mails, sent faxes and begged for our representatives attention. What has it gotten you?
It would appear to me that we now have more laws that violate our liberty and privacy (PATRIOT act) we have a president who has no problem sending soldiers to war (to put it nicely) on questionable motives. We have representatives that had no trouble under-funding the INS and its Border Patrol while in the next breath, calling Ranch Rescue and the Minuteman project vigilante justice.

How's that two party system working for you now?


Mike - Registered Libertarian
 
As offensive as it is to even bring up, the Nazi Germans had an effective method that would not be allowed here. That is to shoot anyone who is between the walls at the border. That would certainly slow down the traffic. I'm not advocating this in the slightest but it worked in another time and place.

Seriously, what does the Border Patrol do with detainees that they pick up at the Mexican border. I see them loaded into small trucks but never see where they're going. It seems to me that they should be forced back over the border at the point of entry, not taken into the United States custody for free welfare benefits and legal recourse.
 
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