IMMEDIATE CALIFORNIA SHALL-ISSUE!!! Read this, guys!

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700 can carry concealed guns Training, interview required to obtain permit
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Those were some good hits on Kathy Brown - Yuba County Sheriff for several years - How long are Sheriffs elected? Looks like she was up for election or re-election in 2001 - so does that put her up next year? Good? Bad? who knows.

You have to pay a few bucks to read the archives and I don't even have 2 dimes to rub together.
 
Reserves

Jim,

Please explain to me the system of Reserves you refer to. What is a Level I? A Level III? I assume there is a II. I'm new to California, and I've never heard of this.


Thanks
 
I'm not Jim but I've looked into the system before.

In Ca. reserve officers come in three flavors.

Level I - Level I is essentially a sworn, fully trained and enabled officer. HE may work solo. He's just on on the books as a reserve officer. Not a permanent full time position.

Level II - Level II officers are sworn, fully trained and have full authority, but have to work under the direct supervision of a Level I officer. May not work solo for most duties.

Level III- Level III officers are not usually sworn, and have minimal training. I think POST says 60 or so but its been my impresssion that that's flexible depending on the departments needs. I think the 3's category is ususally there for department volunteers, folks that do odd jobs for the department, and search and rescue guys with dogs or ATV's or whatever.
 
That's about it. All the Level IIIs can do in terms of "control over others" is direct traffic or whatever - while supervised by a Level 1 reserve or full-tilt cop.

In a couple hours I'll be calling POST to see what the training requirements really are. The law itself is way unclear.

It MIGHT be nothing at all, it might be 60 hours. If the latter, is that a show-stopper? <scratches head> Probably not, as long as the training makes clear that L3s are NOT COPS and do NOT have off-duty peace officer responsibilities. We need to make damned sure this program doesn't "breed strange rangers", at least not at a rate higher than any normal shall-issue CCW system.

("Strange Ranger" is cop-speak for nutcases who play "wanna-be cop" out on the streets. A long running concern of cops in general is that CCW might be seen as some as a "quasi-badge" and the companies selling "CCW badges" are NOT helping in that respect. The problem could get worse with "quasi-cop training" through POST, so we'll have to manage that...)
 
Jim,

I was a little dismayed by the possability of a 60 hour requirement as well.

What occured to me was that perhaps an online or home-study program could be put together to cover all the book study, and hopefully most of the hourly requirement; leaving perhaps 10 or 15 hours of in-person training requirements.
 
The San Diego county sherriff issues, but not too often.

But, a while ago he appeared at a gun club, saying he was in favor of CCW reform, but he wouldn't go "shall issue" himself until it happened.

I think this could be indicitive of either a.) support for us, but worry for his job, or b.) he's lying


Let's hope it's A

BTW Jim, I'm working on a second amendment club in my school. Any help I can provide, I will. Just say the word, and I'll PM you my contact information.

Whether you want me to hand out flyers, make phone calls, whatever. I'll do it.


James
 
Forgot to add, Jim, I have good family and friends in Kern. If you require assistance while up there, just say the word, and I can be in town at a moment's notice.


James
 
Well if those requirements are true, it certainly provides one explanation why Blanas doesn't want to give up the names of his reserves - I highly doubt all the wealthy cronies on such a list would go through a week and a half of training to get a gun permit.
 
Wow!

Once again, Jim comes through with great ideas...

Been following your efforts since the news group days, and have donated via paypal to your efforts in the past,

Let us know how we can help. I'll forward this thread to some other buddies who will be willing to help out as well!
 
Interesting thread

My info's a couple years old, but I think there are about 39,000 CCW's out there alredy........ probably more now. Just went through my 3rd renewal class = taught by a Level III 'volunteer' - 36 people in the class, all going for renewal, over 1/2 for their first time. Everyone passed;)
The class was run free by the Sheriff's office... Our Sheriff is Pro Gun and already knows about the fee $ for his Department... Renewal permit fee went up to $57. One glitch in our county... You gotta prove residence there for the initial issue.
 
Gents and ladies and indeterminate, I think this'll work.

The rules on reserve officer training are *amazingly* complex. Unbelievably so.

By a "standard interpretation", Level 3s need 168 :eek: hours. This was upped from 64 in 1999.

But there appears to be a loophole the size of Texas: the training requirements kick in IF the level 3s are given actual duties.

I'll bet any amount of money that's what Blanas is doing.

Lemme show y'all where I'm at - long post warning ahead:

Penal Code 12050 (a) (1) (C):

----------------
The sheriff of a county or the chief or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a person who has been deputized or appointed as a peace officer pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 830.6 by that sheriff or that chief of police or other head of a municipal police department, may issue to that person a license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Direct or indirect fees for the issuance of a license pursuant to this subparagraph may be waived. The fact that an applicant for a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person has been deputized or appointed as a peace officer pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 830.6 shall be considered only for the purpose of issuing a license pursuant to this subparagraph, and shall not be considered for the purpose of issuing a license pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B).
----------------

Penal Code Penal Code 12050 (a) (2) (B):

----------------
A license issued pursuant to subparagraph (C) of paragraph (1) to a peace officer appointed pursuant to Section 830.6 is valid for any period of time not to exceed four years from the date of the license, except that the license shall be invalid upon the conclusion of the person's appointment pursuant to Section 830.6 if the four-year period has not otherwise expired or any other condition imposed pursuant to this section does not limit the validity of the license to a shorter time period.
----------------

Text above from:

http://www.equalccw.com/thelaw.html

Now let's look at 830.6:

-----------------
830.6. (a) (1) Whenever any qualified person is deputized or appointed by the proper authority as a reserve or auxiliary sheriff or city police officer, a reserve deputy sheriff, [snip other kinds of cop we don't care about], and is assigned specific police functions by that authority, the person is a peace officer, if the person qualifies as set forth in Section 832.6. The authority of a person designated as a peace officer pursuant to this paragraph extends only for the duration of the person's specific assignment. [snip park ranger crap]

(2) Whenever any qualified person is deputized or appointed by the proper authority as a reserve or auxiliary sheriff or city police officer, a reserve deputy sheriff, [snip other kinds of cop we don't care about], and is so designated by local ordinance or, if the local agency is not authorized to act by ordinance, by resolution, either individually or by class, and is assigned to the prevention and detection of crime and the general enforcement of the laws of this state by that authority, the person is a peace officer, if the person qualifies as set forth in paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 832.6. The authority of a person designated as a peace officer pursuant to this paragraph includes the full powers and duties of a peace officer as provided by Section 830.1. [snip other kinds of cop we don't care about]

(b) Whenever any person designated by a Native American tribe recognized by the United States Secretary of the Interior is deputized or appointed by the county sheriff as a reserve or auxiliary sheriff or a reserve deputy sheriff, and is assigned to the prevention and detection of crime and the general enforcement of the laws of this state by the county sheriff, the person is a peace officer, if the person qualifies as set forth in paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 832.6. The authority of a peace officer pursuant to this subdivision includes the full powers and duties of a peace officer as provided by Section 830.1.
-----------------

(To get this text, go to http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html - hit the checkbox for "penal codes" then enter 830 or (832 for the training portion) as the search term.

832 specifies the duties available to Level1/Level2/Level3 reservists, but allows POST to control training times via administrative law.

Regulations on Level3s call for two training modules, one 64 hours, one 96.

Grrrr.

OK, two possible loopholes:

1) What are the rules on how long you can take at the training? We were already talking about a weekend or two a year, that's 24 to 48 hours, the reserve period runs four years, 160 hours wouldn't be painful if stretched out that long! Right?

2) What happens if the agency makes us reserves but doesn't give us any duties? Seriously.

Hmmmmmm.

I'm going round and round over this, and...not certain yet, but I think we're in good shape. Unbelievably, the whole things hangs on a single "or"...

Here's why: go back to PC12050: "The sheriff of a county or the chief or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a person who has been deputized or appointed as a peace officer..."

Will ya look at that?

"OR"

:D

Oh ya. Hell ya. Sure, you don't get true "peace officer" status without the training...fine, cool, we can cope with that.

It's possible to be deputized without the training. You can't DO anything "cop-ish" until you GET the training...:D.

Ohhhhkay. Lemme run this by some lawyer buddies o' mine ASAP pronto.
 
You know what they say Jim, great minds think alike. I have been wishing we could get something like this off the ground here in Wisconsin for a couple of years!! It is legal to conceal carry if a person is a "duly apointed peace officer" here in WI. All we need to to is to find a Sheriff who wouldn't mind having several thousand deputies. Good luck in your fight against the antis there in CA.
 
One gotcha: it looks like we can do this, but we get TWO year permits instead of FOUR. PC12050(a)(1)(C) has the "issuance loophole" but PC12050(a)(2)(B) is more definately tied to "peace officers". So what? Two years between renewals is better than nothing!
 
The upside to this plan is that thousands of Californians may finally be "allowed" to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. The downside is that Sacramento will probably head it off by changing their law to Shall Issue so they can get their mitts on the $$$.
Click to expand...

You say that if its a bad thing.

Greed is good. :D
 
Jim:

On a related note, I believe Blanas is up for re-election this year. Which, if any, of his challengers do you recommend?
 
Jim,
About 4 years ago,I looked into the reserve angle here in San Rafael. The detective I talked to wasn't real helpful.He claimed that reserve cops HAD to go through the full POST training like a regular cop.Needless to say, I didn't follow through as he didn't sound like they wanted "citizens" helping the elite cops!
I always thought it would be good to be a reserve to help the community, traffic control during parades,farmers markets,etc.,and get the benefit of a ccw. Hell,I'll gladly "serve"(money and time) some other county.

QuickDraw
 
This is a great corolary to the "too many laws" syndrome we have in this country.

I am more than a little giddy because I think that Jim is right based on simple reading and I would bet that this is EXACTLY what Blanas and others are doing. I would even bet that the law was worded that way with the intent that these chumps can get away with it.

From what I read, any Sheriff or Police Chief can deputize anyone, give them absolutely no duties to avoid the training reqs and then issue them a CCW for 2 years.

Eugene Byrd (former Isletone Police Chief - its a tiny little hamlet on the Sacramento delta) giving permits to Sacramento county residents back when any chief LEO could issue to any county resident - that REALLY got Glen Craig upset and the law was changed.

The thing is - if Blanas complains, he may be painting a target on himself as he is almost certainly doing this on the sly.

I think the thing to do would be get a few lawyerly types to bless it - maybe even offer to help the Sheriff if he gets in trouble, then do a trial run on about 50-200 people. Get 'em all deputized and and licensed and whatnot. Then get another Sheriff to do the same, then you got MOMENTUM.

What are the laws regarding disclosure of deputy status? Could our good Sheriff be forced to say who has been deputized? What if Citizen LA gets stopped with his "deputy CCW"? He is in LA with a rural county CCW - normally not valid - how does he show his deputy status?

Realisticly, maybe 1% of the deputies would be "looked at" like this per year - so one guy here and there who is deputized, may not be a big deal - but there should definately be a legal kit for all involved with the laws, cites, letters from the l'ars and whatnot. Else some city cop thinks the CCW is invalid and puts our guy in the klink.

There is no reason we could not get a pilot program going with 500-1000 people out there before it "breaks" into the public conciousness.
 
If you have a CCW with no restrictions, it is valid anywhere in the State of California. My CCW is good in Los Angeles just the same as it is here in Kern County. LA County and/or City doesn't have to like my CCW, but they have to honor it. :D
 
I think the issue here is that with the current budget crisis, money talks.

I had thought about having a shall-issue CCW permit system be used to bail the state of California out of its budget mess, but I don't think you can bail the state budget out at $100 a pop. Heck, even at $1000 a pop, you wouldn't even make a dent out of the state budget deficit.

$15 billion... say 1% of the California population of 33million goes for CCW permits... thats 330K. Thats $45.5K each!
 
You can't solve ALL the sheriff's budgets at $100 a pop, but if you focus all that in a few rural (broke) counties :D.
 
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