There’s a make and model of pistol I like that doesn’t bring too terribly much these days and a collection of nine are coming up for auction. I will place bids in advance on all nine, and the reality is I might win one or none. But, if the stars align, and I end up with all nine, they are shipped from the auction house across state lines to my FFL in Pennsylvania. What are the implications, if any, of purchasing nine at once? I’ve limited purchases of pistols to one at a time, these days maybe one a year, at best, so what red flags would this raise? State police? Other?
Implications of purchasing nine pistols at once
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garandsrus
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There is a form the FFL has to fill out if someone buys more than 2 or 3 pistols at the same time.
Bazoo
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Well, the atf is gonna look at you. Whether or not they will pay you a visit for you to explain is a maybe. But it’s very possible they will want you to explain why you’re purchasing so many of the same model.
Okay so limit it to 3? Or less?
I’ll have to do live bidding instead of leaving left bids. Odds are I’d only get one or zero anyways. But, if they go cheaply, is two the max or is 3 okay?
We’re talking about single shot 22 pistols, by the way.
I’ll have to do live bidding instead of leaving left bids. Odds are I’d only get one or zero anyways. But, if they go cheaply, is two the max or is 3 okay?
We’re talking about single shot 22 pistols, by the way.
dogtown tom
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Dealers are required by federal law to report the sale two or more handguns to the same buyer in any five business day period. (It's the dealers business days)
The dealer completes an ATF Multiple Sale form https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...pistols-and-revolvers-atf-form-33104/download and mails/faxes/emails it to ATF at the close of that business day. Its a three part form, one to ATF, one to the local "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" and the third gets stapled to your 4473. I mail mine to the Plano PD. (its my CLEO, not the buyers CLEO)
dogtown tom
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No federal law restricts how many guns can be transferred to a buyer/transferee.
Undoubtedly, a large number of guns in one transaction will attract attention and may result in a visit from ATF. They may knock on your door and ask if you are reselling the guns. Answer honestly, that you are a collector and won them at auction.......and poof! they disappear.
I have a longtime customer who has received as many as ten Beretta pistols in one transaction. I jokingly told him that ATF would be at his door the next afternoon. It tokk two days for his visit. They asked if he was reselling, he said no he's a collector and invited them in to see his collection. They said thank you, well make a note that you are a collector and not bother you again. That was ten years ago. Since then I've filled out several more multiple sale reports and ATF has yet to return to him.
RickD427
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Pretty much nothing.
The dealer is required to submit a "Multiple Sales Report."
I've only heard of a few folks having any follow-up contact from BATF as a result of the reports. The ones that I have heard of were folks who generated multiple such reports in a short period of time. Once the nice BATF agents were satisfied that the purchased handguns were still in the possession of the buyer, the interest went away.
The dealer is required to submit a "Multiple Sales Report."
I've only heard of a few folks having any follow-up contact from BATF as a result of the reports. The ones that I have heard of were folks who generated multiple such reports in a short period of time. Once the nice BATF agents were satisfied that the purchased handguns were still in the possession of the buyer, the interest went away.
herrwalther
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Probably not. As stated, the shop has to fill out a multiple sale form and send it off. You might get a visit from the ATF, you might not.
I got a visit from the ATF once. I was attending university after my military tour where we had commemorative pistols made. I ordered 3 of them. Within a couple weeks two agents sat down with me and the campus attorney. They asked about the pistols. But since it is against campus policy to have them on campus they were being stored off. As soon as I said they were commemorative editions and offered to show pictures of the engraving, the questions were done and they left.
I got a visit from the ATF once. I was attending university after my military tour where we had commemorative pistols made. I ordered 3 of them. Within a couple weeks two agents sat down with me and the campus attorney. They asked about the pistols. But since it is against campus policy to have them on campus they were being stored off. As soon as I said they were commemorative editions and offered to show pictures of the engraving, the questions were done and they left.
Carl N. Brown
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ATF views purchasing multiples of the same model and caliber as an indication of buying for resale (dealing without a license).
They will look for a pattern, buys of multiple guns, same make, model, caliber.
They will look for a pattern, buys of multiple guns, same make, model, caliber.
Only takes 2 in a week IIRC and the FFL has to tell on you. They have to tell what you bought. No worries they're looking for the guy who buys 9 cheap 9mm Hi Points to see if they're selling them.
I've done 4 at a time twice and no call.
BTW ironically they aren't required to report AR lowers.
I've done 4 at a time twice and no call.
BTW ironically they aren't required to report AR lowers.
I agree. It depends on the guns you buy and on what you say and how you behave when they visit.
If you are buying guns with obvious collector interest then they may never even contact you. If they do and you answer straightforwardly when they ask, you shouldn't have any problems.
If you are buying a bunch of identical guns with no collector interest (see mavracer's post for an example), figure on a visit. If you act shifty or evasive when asked about your intent, then figure on some interesting times.
If you are buying guns with obvious collector interest then they may never even contact you. If they do and you answer straightforwardly when they ask, you shouldn't have any problems.
If you are buying a bunch of identical guns with no collector interest (see mavracer's post for an example), figure on a visit. If you act shifty or evasive when asked about your intent, then figure on some interesting times.
dogtown tom
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Two or more handguns to the same buyer in any five business day period. (It's the dealers business days)
As examples:
Dealer is open M-F and Saturdays.
Customer buys a pistol on Monday and a pistol on Saturday.....no report.
Customer buys a pistol on Monday and a pistol on Friday...report required.
Customer buys a pistol on Thursday, a pistol on Saturday and another pistol the next Wednesday......there will be a report Saturday and another report on Wednesday.
But......it gets better:
Dealer is open Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and every other Saturday
Customer buys a pistol on Monday, returns to purchase a pistol the next Wednesday....report required. Even though its been well over a calendar week...its been less than five of the dealers business days.
Dealer is usually open M-F, but takes a vacation:
Customer buys pistol on Monday, returns a month later and buys another pistol. Dealer counts his business days from when the purchase is made. If five days or less....report required.
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P5 Guy
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That's about as close to one gun a month as can be.
guyfromohio
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I wouldn’t worry too much about. A typical FFL transaction stays with the FFL. A muliti-handgun purchase causes communication with the BATF. Whether you want that, is up to you.
dogtown tom
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Huh?
jmorris
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Question, is that based on the 4473 or intake of the firearms (change in possession or ownership).
It’s not uncommon for me to have a number of firearms at one of my dealers place, that I have bought over maybe months of time (maybe a year on some stuff that goes through NFA branch, guess those are not “handguns”) but they all get picked up at the same time. Never have received a call or visit from anyone though.
herrwalther
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I don't think you understand what Tom was saying. The example used is multiple handguns purchased at the same dealer in a short time with a very unusual schedule of days they are open. I can and have purchased guns at dealer X and gotten more guns at dealer Y the very next day, no ATF report form in that instance. The example Tom used was how when a dealer is open can lead to a multiple sale form or not. It had nothing to do with a purchase limitation.
guyfromohio
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That was offered to me once by an FFL. I believe it’s fine.
dogtown tom
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Its based on the date the customer takes possession. Its not always the date he fills out the Form 4473 because a NICS delay may result in him returning several days later. On that retuen he again signs and dates the 4473 with the current day.
First, multiple sale reports are only on handguns. Not frames, receivers, AR lowers, shotguns, rifles or NFA firearms. (an exception is licensed dealers in CA, AZ, NM and TX have to report the multiple sale of certain rifles.)
When you bought the firearm is irrelevant. The determining factor is when the firearm was transferred from the dealer to you.
dogtown tom
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Its required to fill out the Form 4473 and pass NICS before taking possession of a firearm listed on that 4473. If the customer then chooses to not take possession at that point, he'll still sign the form and date it when he does return.
While a buyer "structuring" his firearm transfers to avoid multiple sale reporting is not illegal, its suspicious as heck. Don't think for a minute that ATF doesn't see those entries in the dealers bound book during a compliance inspection. They do and yes they take notes. Multiple sale reports are common as heck. I fill out 3-4 every week.
Any customer that has several handguns arrive and wants to take them home one at a time to avoid the multiple sale reporting? That's a BIG NOPE. I'm not going to explain to ATF why I think my buyer did that.
While the Form 4473's may be a week or more apart, the bound book entries will show those handguns arrived for the same buyer at the same time.....and were disposed to that same buyer in a manner designed to avoid the multiple sale report. Wanna get on the radar? Thats how you get on the radar.
dogtown tom
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He's an idiot.
herrwalther
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If the staggered transfers were caused by NICS delays/issues would that still look suspicious in the A&D book?
dogtown tom
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Understand that the two have no relation to each other.
The multiple sale form is not completed or submitted until after the buyer has been transferred the firearm.
herrwalther
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Understood. Thank you.
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