IMR 4198 hang fires

[ciwsguy]

Recently loaded some 7.62 x39 using IMR 4198 powder and Federal large rifle primers, 123 SP Berrys plated bullets. Shooting in a Ruger American Ranch rifle that has performed flawlessly thus far with factory ammo and my reloads. The last batch of reloads resulted in delayed detonation (hang fires). Has anyone experienced similar issues with IMR 4198 powder and Federal 210 primers? Wondering as this is the first episode of hang fires I have experienced. Shooting factory 7.62x39 ammo after the hang fires resulted in back to normal operation. I’m thinking there may be something amiss with the primers or the powder.

 

[P51D]

Hi, ciwsguy. I've used a few pounds of IMR 4198, not in 7.62 x 39, but in 8 x 57 Mauser and .223 Rem, the former probably with some Federal LR primers. I have not had a hang fire with those, nor with anything else I've loaded (yet). I'm curious as to how long the delay was between hammer drop and firing. Was it barely noticeable, a fraction of a second, a second or more, etc.

Thanks. P51D

 

[AJC1]

Easiest test is to shift one component either powder or primer and retest. My first guess would be powder.

 

[JFrank]

There’s not enough information about your reloading process, but this sounds like ignition rather than combustion. @AJC1 im thinking pin fall / weak spring or toooo much shoulder set back etc. or something along those lines.
What have you noticed with that powder ?

 

[243winxb]

Wet tumbling?
Spray lube?
Bullet produces light neck tension? Firing of primer moves bullet to soon.

I use/used a lot of IMR 4198. Never an issue. Last use was in 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[Laphroaig]

I've always heard that IMR4198 isn't position sensitive.

Hang fires are a mystery to me.

 

[Bcwitt]

Sometimes the primer isnt seated the entire way. Sometimes primers arent stored very well. Definately primer. Not related to powder.

 

[25-20 WCF]

I've always heard that IMR4198 isn't position sensitive….

All powders are position sensitive to different degrees, depending on the loading density of course. IMR4198 certainly is in the .375 WCF and .45-70 at starting load levels, the differences in average velocities between powder forward against the bullet and back against the primer can exceed 100 fps in my testing with an ES approaching 200 fps. Is position sensitivity enough to cause the OP’s hang fires? Don’t know, what is his charge weight/loading density? I’ve used 4198 in the similarly-sized .30 Herrett with similar weight jacketed bullets, it performed well there and I never had a hang fire with it. The lower friction of cast bullets with less neck tension and engraving pressures may be a contributor. As noted above, try a different primer - with no other changes - and see if the hang fires persist. The powder may be faulty (rare but then we don’t know its history) or the charge density is too low. Or it’s a different powder entirely - but we’ll trust the OP on that.




.

 

[ciwsguy]

How long of a firing delay? I’ve No way to measure it, but it’s probably about 0.1 -0.2 seconds. Just going to have to experiment and do process of elimination. I noticed it at the range the other day. It was unusual

 

[ciwsguy]

Sometimes the primer isnt seated the entire way. Sometimes primers arent stored very well. Definately primer. Not related to powder.

Primers we’re fully seated. I’ve noticed that Norma brass has very tight primer pockets. Tough to tell when it’s fully seated, but I look for flush to just below flush to the case

 

[ciwsguy]

All powders are position sensitive to different degrees, depending on the loading density of course. IMR4198 certainly is in the .375 WCF and .45-70 at starting load levels, the differences in average velocities between powder forward against the bullet and back against the primer can exceed 100 fps in my testing with an ES approaching 200 fps. Is position sensitivity enough to cause the OP’s hang fires? Don’t know, what is his charge weight/loading density? I’ve used 4198 in the similarly-sized .30 Herrett with similar weight jacketed bullets, it performed well there and I never had a hang fire with it. The lower friction of cast bullets with less neck tension and engraving pressures may be a contributor. As noted above, try a different primer - with no other changes - and see if the hang fires persist. The powder may be faulty (rare but then we don’t know its history) or the charge density is too low. Or it’s a different powder entirely - but we’ll trust the OP on that.




.

Trying a different primer is a tough thing to do these days. I have Federal 210, CCI No.34 and CCI BR-2 to choose

 

[ciwsguy]

Wet tumbling?
Spray lube?
Bullet produces light neck tension? Firing of primer moves bullet to soon.

I use/used a lot of IMR 4198. Never an issue. Last use was in 6.5 Creedmoor

Wet tumbled with pins, Hornady case cleaner, dehydrator dried and cases sit for two days. Lubed with Unique case lube, resized, wet tumble cleaned again, dehydrated and fully dried before priming.
Primers kept in cool dry place cabinet, temp and humidity controlled.

 

[243winxb]

Unique case lube

1. Tallow
Concentration 70 - 90 % (weight) from the sds.

RCBS 2 lube is water soluble. Able to be dissolved, especially in water.

Pins in the flash hole? Pins have gone down barrels.

After looking at the sds, i would stop using this- HORNADY® One Shot® Sonic Clean™ Solution- Gun Parts Formula.

Sorry.

 

[AJC1]

There’s not enough information about your reloading process, but this sounds like ignition rather than combustion. @AJC1 im thinking pin fall / weak spring or toooo much shoulder set back etc. or something along those lines.
What have you noticed with that powder ?

I go easy first. If it's not the first two then the search gets complicated rapidly. Saying it is fine by following up with factory has me thinking against firing pin.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I died 4198 that's from a metal can 2 weeks ago. No hang fire. It's cast 7.62x39.
Usually a hangfire is ignition related.
I'd bet contamination.
Try your other primers.

 

[AJC1]

I died 4198 that's from a metal can 2 weeks ago. No hang fire. It's cast 7.62x39.
Usually a hangfire is ignition related.
I'd bet contamination.
Try your other primers.

I find contamination probable if using a lot of lube but he wet tumbles a second time... maybe moisture?
Test the components in another cartridge.

 

[Bfh_auto]

There’s not enough information about your reloading process, but this sounds like ignition rather than combustion. @AJC1 im thinking pin fall / weak spring or toooo much shoulder set back etc. or something along those lines.
What have you noticed with that powder ?

I agree on not enough information. But factory 7.62x39 has such hard primers. Either option would result in clicks with factory ammo. Unless he's running brass cased S&B or domestic.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I find contamination probable if using a lot of lube but he wet tumbles a second time... maybe moisture?
Test the components in another cartridge.

Could be.

 

[MEHavey]

7.62 x39 using IMR 4198

Can you give us the bullet/powder weight/OAL ?

 

[Bcwitt]

Might be worthwhile to measure pocket depth & compare to the cup.

 

[Blue68f100]

Do you wet clean with primers in? If so maybe one had some moisture that impacted the powder.

 

[ciwsguy]

You’re kidding right? I’m not THAT dumb.

Do you wet clean with primers in? If so maybe one had some moisture that impacted the powder.

 

[ciwsguy]

Can you give us the bullet/powder weight/OAL ?

Berrys 123 grain spire point which has a 2000 fps upper limit.
Powder is IMR 4198, 22.2 grains which chrono’d right at 2000 fps
OAL = 2.134”

 

[ciwsguy]

Could be.

Not moisture. Ruled that out.

 

[ciwsguy]

I agree on not enough information. But factory 7.62x39 has such hard primers. Either option would result in clicks with factory ammo. Unless he's running brass cased S&B or domestic.

All my reloads are brass cases, S&B, Hornady, PMC, Norma and Fiocchi. This has not been an issue with Hornady brass as the primer pocket uses Small Rifle.