Informal SHTF Rifle Shooting Poll

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Well lets play again...

I would still grab my Bushie M4A3 AR-15 with A2 stock and Ak muzzle brake on a 14 1/2", 1/9 Heavy barrel and forward mouinted red dot. If i can see my bullet strikes(maybe use all tracers:cool: ), and thre is no wind , with .223's flat trajectory I shoul be on(or reeeeeaaaaaaally close:scrutiny: ) by shot 4 AND 5. .223 out of a 14 1/2" barrel at 600 yds. might atleast leave a nasty bruise :confused: :) ...TMC
 
".... I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill. This is a drill, pure and simple. Can you take your SHTF and make one out of five shots at 600. It is really that simple: no catch. .....All I ask is that you be honest: whatever rifle you would grab on your way out the door if you were forced to flee right this second.


The point of grabbing your SHTF rifle in my question is that you are NOT choosing from a safe full of rifles like you would golf clubs from your caddy. You have a situation, you are forced to leave your house, you grab ONE rifle and leave the house. Most of us have a rifle in mind for that situation. Most of those rifles are milsurp type rifles, although your personal rifle that you would honestly grab is the rifle to use in this drill: not a specialized rifle. ..... That rifle as it is as you grab it and head out the door. ...... Again, you have one rifle. You and that one rifle have to perform."



Interesting thoughts. I guess I like that you will hold people feet to the fire to stay with the intent of the thread. Peoples perceptions of "SHTF" differ. You mentioned military rifles, myself, I would grab a scoped bolt gun, a sporter (a 1903 Springfield), rather than a mil-surp/semi auto for about any realistic situation I can envision. Yes, I can make hits with that gun, tho I seldom shoot it at that range, I have, and can. The other guns can be fun, but I personaly feel better armed and equiped with a scoped sporter and 100 rounds than any semi auto I've had or seen. Just me. Maybe this puts me outside the parameters of your thread, but that is my "SHTF" gun.


One of my first criteria of a "useful" rifle is "will it kill game (elk etc) well". If it does that, I can work with it for other purposes. "SHTF" to me means being able to feed myself as well as defend. Lower powered scopes seem more reliable. A fixed 3x or 4x is enough. Guess I'm not very tactical.
 
"I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill."


Nope, I seriously doubt I could, but that should'nt be surprising since that's not what my SHTF rifle is for. I probably couldn't hit a clay pigeon at 100 yds w/ my 1911 1 out of 5 shots either. :D
 
Shooting past 500yds in a SHTF situation isn't that outrageous. Think Sarajevo and the sniper wars. Of course in that situation many of us have better tools than my battle rifle for smoking out snipers.
 
What sort of SHTF situation would involve picking fights with people half a mile away? I'm more concerned with clowns that get within 50 yards of me looking to take my stuff.
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+1
My sentiments exactly. This is why I choose an SKS and my shotgun. In a pinch, my wife can shoot my Ruger 10/22. Nobody is going to stand there and get shot with .22lr hp.
 
Malamute, whatever rifle you would honestly grab is fine with me. As we all know, there are going to be trade offs. If you grab a scoped sporter rifle and need to clear a building or something you are going to probably have to go with a ballistically inferior handgun. If someone else chooses a pistol caliber carbine and they need to shoot at extended range, they are out of luck. Everything is a trade off. And that is something I was thinking about when I posted this thread: I want something that is versititile. I want something that can fill as many niches as possible even if it doesn't do all of them really well. Close quarters out to medium ranges. With my choice of rifles, I have a variety of sighting options that I can change in seconds and the other optics arn't heavy and bulky to carry: I think it is actually practical. I can shoot iron sights, red dot, ACOG, or 3-9x variable scope. All the optics are mounted in LaRue mounts, and all the mounts attach to a rail. I can leave my dot optic on the gun for general purpose, everyday carry. But, if I needed to make a shot at 500-600 yards and had the time, I could take about 30 seconds and switch that optic out to a 3-9 scope and have a lot higher hit percentage.

Obviously, I don't think it is a good idea, to envision one senario to be prepared for and choose a weapon for that one senario and train for that one senario and refuse to believe that anything else could possibly happen. I also don't think this is fun. As a gunowner, I like to train and challenge myself with new stuff. To me, that makes each range session a lot of fun and something to look forward to. Practicing head shots at three yards from the ready on a timer is a lot of fun. Shooting carbine El Presidente' is a lot of fun. Shooting at the extreme ranges of your skills is just as much fun. Being intimately familiar with your weapon, which includes knowing your sight dope out to long range is fun. Nothing negative will come from starting at three yards and working out to 600 and seeing what you need to do to hit at those ranges: sight dope, scope turret settings, mil-dots, whatever. And finding that information takes a lot of serious shooting on your part which is what it takes to get good with a rifle (not that I would know about being good with a rifle, but it seems to make sense).
I think a lot of people would be surprised what they could do with a rifle if they actually get out and try it. I have shot in matches where a guy was actually trying to win using a Yugo SKS out to 800 yards. And, he was hitting the targets. He didn't hit them often enough to win, but it gave me a whole new appreciation of the rifle and cartridge. That same guy has shot a local F-Class (1000 yard) match using a milsurp Mauser. And was putting shots on paper. You never know what you might do until you try it.
 
"Grab going out the door" is perhaps a misnomer for some of us, the rifles I shoot, carry and use most live in my truck most of the time. A scoped bolt gun and Winchester 94 carbine cover most of my uses, and the 45-70 Browning goes along when going up where the bears live. I carry a rifle daily, at least for short periods, when walking the dogs. I live 35 miles from even a small town. House clearing, and other things town folks think of on a regular basis seem about as foreign to me as worrying about grizzlies would to them. I just use what's most practical for me, and where I live. I hardly ever get in gunfights any more, I do carry every day in the hills, and have shot a fair amount of game over the years. "SHTF" in the terms most seem to conceive of it has different connotations in different areas.

A well rounded rifleman should have a variety of skills, like a well rounded pistol shooter. I quite agree with those that like to try new ideas, and work to develop their field shooting skills. Shooting from a bench or single position are limiting. Shooting longer range is another skill we could all use. Like long range pistol shooting, (out to 300 yards), when you get good at longer ranges, shorter stuff seems pretty easy. Our well rounded rifleman shouldn't have too much trouble with defensive situations with whatever they happen to have in hand, tho a gun they are very familiar with can be an impressive instrument.

Good thread.
 
Zak Smith,

I thought I was the only one that used the,"Mono-pod", to any effect. Knowing it is done by a shooter of your caliber(pun intended) makes me feel better :p ...

When people complained about the 30 round mags sitting on the ground when prone, I decided to check it out and find it very stable :neener: ...
 
TMC, that 14.5" HBAR is certainly accurate enough. FMJ will still pass clean through at that distance, no fragmentation but you would not need it anyway.

Rails and throw lever mounts offer so many possibilities. :D
 
Not being able to shoot long range, is like not knowing how to shift out of first gear, because you only drive in town. My "Grab and Go" rifle is an M1-A, and I shoot across the course with it, along with an AR-15, a SC 03-A3, and once in a while even an L1-A1 FAL. If you haven`t tried it, then it seems to me that your are deliberately handicapping yourself. Regards,
 
For those of you who never tried shooting at long ranges, let me just relate a couple of the stages we shot today in our local Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle match (second Saturday of each month: Desert Sportsman's, 0900). The match today was kind of screwed up because the club was hosting an event for hunters to sight in their deer rifles on the main range that we normally use for our match. Therefore the stages were very simple, but were challenging. The match is well attended with women and children participating. Rifles are pre-1950 bolt action military rifles and they are not allowed to have any external modifications (trigger jobs allowed, but I don't know anyone that has one): in other words, everyone is shooting as issued iron sights. The first stage my group shot was a steel plate at what we estimated to be 700 yards. We arrived at this estimate because the plate was on the bullet inpact area of the NRA Highpower range which we guessed was about 50 yards beyond the 600 yard target pits and we guessed we were another 50 yards behind the Highpower firing line. Anyway, I don't know how big the plate was, but I would guess it was about three feet square. We were allowed to shoot this from "supported prone". This usually means someone will have something like a .50 ammo can or a backpack you can use as a support for the front of the rifle. I shot from prone with a shooting sling. We have a lot of wind: I was holding about 3-4 target widths into the wind (the windage knob on my '03A3 doesn't click so I don't mess with it: kentucky windage). Everyone at the match (30+people ? ) got hits on that target. The next stage was shot from the sitting position at a plate measuring two feet tall and 18" wide at 400 yards (actually 410 yards, some guy on the previous squad happened to have a laser rangefinder). Again, everyone but one guy got hits on it. The final stage was another 2'x18" plate at 200 which was shot offhand.
This stuff is a lot of fun and great practice.
We will shoot a similar course of fire next weekend with the semiautos: SKSs, AKs, M1s, M1As, FALs, HK91s etc. Pre-M16 era rifles. If you live in the Las Vegas area this Vintage Military Semi-Auto Rifle match is held at Desert Sportsman's on the third Saturday of each month.

There is also a metalic silhouette match shot with vintage military rifles shot at the Boulder City range on the first Sunday of each month. 200 meter chickens are shot offhand, pigs are shot sitting, turkeys and rams (500 meters) are shot prone. Again, all iron sights.
 
I have done my fair share of 600 yd shooting in Leg matches and other matches. I allways wrote down my sight settings in books and on my individual rifles (label on stock) so that I had a quik referance guide to use for all ranges/distance.

I'll plead the 5th as too two shots that I took at a guesstemated range of 700-800 yards from my back yard. I used my wifes M-1 in 7.62mm to shoot at, shall we say, two turkey size targets out in the open of a harvested bean field. All I can say is that I was very very close but had bacon and beans for supper.

A fellow 2nd shift worker was relating to the day shift workers the small group sizes that I was shooting while practicing 200 yd rapid fire earlier that day at the county range. I had one ten shot group that could be coverd with a paper coffee cup.
My day man held up a freshly lit cigaritte by the filter and with a big grin asked if I could shoot it out of his hand at 600 yards? I replied "No, I couldn't,,,, but I know that I could make you drop it!" and everyone had a big laugh.

All that being said it would be very unrealistic to engage a target at 600 yards without some knowledge of the very rifle being used or some familiarity with the type of rifle used and expect any hits.
With out optics it would be nearly impossible see or to engage a target unless it was standing in the wide open daring you to shoot at it. If you knew your weapon and it's capabilites and had a spotter who would direct your fire
to the righthand base of a tree or a certain area of a vehicle etc. You might be effective against personnel.
another $.02 worth.

Vern
 
just got back from a match and it was a real winner back at 600 yards. The wind was how do you say it? Bad. switching with gust. I have not shot at 600 yards here since like july 3rd. The guy next to me ( who happens to be my coach at the nationals) bet me a beer on the first shot cold which would be the first sighter. He hit a solid 10 with 2 1/2 minutes left on ( he told me later). He said go ahead you better hit a X to beat me. I hit a solid X to win. Did not miss a single wind call but lost two 9's out the top at like shot 5 and 6. corrected for the light and on shot 13 hit a 8 out the bottom and adjusted up. Did not see any big light changes but they were changing every so slightly that I should of corrected for them sooner. ended up with a 196 to win the prone 600 yard part. It is nice to walk up and lay down and know you WILL put it right down the gut from 600 yards.
My SHTF rifle? yeah I would not think twice about grabbing any one that I own.
 
Reviving an old thread...

How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now. This obvious also means that you know the sight dope to use for that first shot hit.
Click to expand...
Ok. I finally did it. Me and my rifle went to the 600 yard range and I put up the 600 yard high-power target and stapled an IDPA target to that, right over the bullseye. I had forgotten about the 5 shots only thing and just shot two mags of 17 our of my AR-10 16" with iron sights. I was shooting mil-surp Radway Green.

The first mag I shot from standing and kneeling. Only 1 shot hit the IDPA target. 8 shots hit the target board. The 2nd mag was from a braced sitting or an improvised rest position. I had 3 IDPA hits and 12 target board hits - most of which were within the 6 ring, many within inches of the IDPA target.

So I guess for that 2nd mag, I came pretty darn close to the 1 in 5 hits you mention above. I was by myself at the range that day so I didn't have a target puller or a spotter. I didn't take any "sighter" shots. I just ran through my mags and then drove down to pull the target.

Obviously not great shooting. Better than some maybe - worse than others for sure. Kind of fun though. Makes me want to practice more. :cool:
 
Right ON

The first thing that strikes me is that you appearently have the sight dope for that range. All that remains now is to practice.
Damn right it's fun. You chose to challenge yourself and push your own limits. You had some success and you want more.
That is what it is all about.

It sounds to me like you weren't using a real realistic shooting postion for that range, although if you could pull it off you certainly have my respect. Next time out, try prone with a good shooting sling. As you get better, you can refine your sight dope and get them all on paper.


Note: I am certainly no expert. I don't claim for a minute to be a great shot. But I LOVE to shoot at longish range with rifles and am really happy to see I am not alone. :) Who cares if you ever have to do it for real ? What if all you get out of it is a lot of fun ? What if it boosts your confidence that you and your rifle can handle any situation within a range of almost a half mile ?
WHAT WOULD BE WRONG WITH THAT ?
 
Model 70

I have a Winchester Model 70 in that beloved .30-06 that will accomplish this task. I've even seen this rifle hit the 1k mark in the hands of a more skilled rifleman.
 
The SU-16 is sketchy out that far, but I have fair confidence in 2-3 out of 5 shots with 75gr ammo. I can ring the 440yd 18" square steel gong with it all day long with a 1x sight and plain m193. Almost boring.

Now, has anyone shot 400yds with a *pistol*?! (Yes they will do it, and many accurate pistols can hit people. I am maybe 1 for 10 with my G34 in 9mm on that same 440yd gong target. Surprisingly little holdover, I aim perhaps 12 feet high.
 
So stick a silhouette out there at 600 and see what you can do. It sounds like you have a good chance of hitting it.

You have that gong figured out.
I used to be a member of a club that had a steel elephant at about 250 yards that I could hit all day long with my Ruger MK.II. I would even take friends out there and fire the whole magazine, then sit there for what seemed like a long time and eventually hear ding ding ding....nine times. But, I wasn't a great long range pistol shot. I just knew exactly where to hold on that particular target at that particular range. I am not sure it would directly translate to another place or target. But, you never know until you give it a try. Steel targets are a lot of fun. We have a piece of steel at the club I belong to now, I never measured it but it is about 18" and is at 380 yards (they call it 400 but someone actually measured it and it is a bit under). That makes a great target. Although most of the people that I see shooting at it are firing off the bench using scoped rifles. That isn't much fun, the target is like 4-5 MOA: hitting that from a bench with a scoped rifle shouldn't be much of a challenge. But, from a practical position using iron sights on a battle rifle, it is a pretty good target. It is similar to hitting a person COM at that distance.
 
This is a great thread.

I have not achieved this with a 308, because I have tried that far with it yet. With my old ar set-up(20inch barrel, 3-9x55 atn) I could consistantly ding a 15" wide by 20" tall steel plate with bulk Lake City off the truck hood(@ 700 yards). The holdover was a matter of seeing where the bullet kicked up dust and then compensating, as the BDC went 500. The wind at that distance really plays tricks on stuff. This is not my ideal SHTF rifle though. It'd be interested to see if a scoped FAL could do it....
 
The test 444 mentioned earlier was developed as part of an effort to find a one rifle/gear setup that could accomplish all of the following tasks:

From 15yds, begin advancing on two IDPA targets. Fire two shots to the body of one target, two shots to the body of the next target, one shot to the head of that target and one shot to the head of the next target (box drill) in under 5 seconds. AMust have 6 hits must be in -0 zone.

From 50yds, fire 2 shots standing, two shots kneeling, two shots prone at an IDPA target in under 10 seconds. Must have 6 hits in -0 zone.

From 300yds, fire a single shot at an IDPA target within 15 seconds. Must have hit in -0 zone.

From 500yds fire a single shot at an IDPA target within 20 seconds. Must have hit on IDPA target.

The idea was that a rifle that could accomplish all of those tasks would be a very versatile weapon that should be well suited to a variety of different shooting tasks. I was interested in seeing if there was any common thread between the rifle/shooters that were able to accomplish the tasks.
 
The first thing that strikes me is that you appearently have the sight dope for that range.
Click to expand...
Last time I sighted that rifle, I used the Improved Battle-Sight Zero method. For the 600 yard shot, I just cranked up the elevation to the number 6. I'm as suprised as anyone that it actually worked! :)
It sounds to me like you weren't using a real realistic shooting postion for that range, although if you could pull it off you certainly have my respect. Next time out, try prone with a good shooting sling. As you get better, you can refine your sight dope and get them all on paper.
Click to expand...
My shooting positions were unrealistic on purpose. I figure in a SHTF-type event, I'm not going to have time to get into a nice comfortable prone position or even a comfortable semi-braced position. So all the shots were from an improvised position.

I'm really looking forward to working on my position shooting at all ranges and I'm fortunate in that my club has some of the top 600 & 1,000 yard shooters in the state/region. Over the next year I plan on taking on the form of a sponge. :)



Bartholomew Roberts: That sounds like a great drill.
 
Here's what I posted a while ago about my experiences shooting SHTF rifles at long distances...surplus ammo, prone, kneeling, standing, 40 rounds in 50 seconds every stage

Just shot a "Rattle Battle" Match...what an education

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My club held it's first Rattle Battle match this weekend...it was humbling and educational. The event was 3 stages...each 40 rounds in 50 seconds with 1 mag change. Simulated 600 yd silhouettes at 200 yards prone, simulated 300 yd silhouettes at 200 yards sitting, then 200 yard silhouettes standing.

http://www.bristolranges.com/High_P...power_rifle.htm

I've been interested in rifles over the last 3 or so years after my many-year obsession with pistols and shotguns. Since I've always been a history buff, battle rifles make up over half of my collection and take up most of my shooting.
PICT0034_2.jpg


I've been getting fairly good with my M1A and DSA StG off the bench at 100 and 200 and I've started to shoot prone and sitting at 100. The rifle competition coordinator set up this rattle battle match in reaction to lots of grumbling about the single-load rule. I signed up, loaded up 6 mags with Port surplus and took my trusty DSA StG58A (ol' reliable)...I though it would be a lot of fun to show off my new found skills. Instead, I placed 18th out of 26 competitors.

Here's what I learned..most of the fall in the "well, duh" category but there's nothing like experiencing them to learn them.
  • A man sized target at 600 yards is really small...and really hard to hit with open sights
  • Don't judge a book by it's cover...a teenager with long hair and in black pants, a skateboarder shirt, black stocking cap and listening to music between stages made 18 hits on the 600 yard target (I made 2)
  • Shooting 40 rounds of 308 in 50 seconds accurately is hard to do...the mouse guns ruled in this area
  • I would have been better off with 15 well aimed shots that connected rather than filling the air with 40 rounds of lead in the general vicinity of the target
  • Get off the bench...bench shooting is nothing like position shooting
  • Know your ammo...I have shot 100's of rounds of Port surplus flawlessly in single load....I had 5 FTF (with strong primer hits) in 120 rounds expended during the match
  • Know your gun...I fumbled quick mag changes...the Falcon Arms spring kit that I installed to give a nice trigger pull may have contributed to the FTFs
  • Know how to clear your rifle...5 FTF meant lots of quick slap-rack-bang drills...fortunately I did well at these
  • 18 shooters letting off 40 rounds each in 50 seconds is similar to the grand finale of a fireworks show in sound...just awesome
  • The gun store commandos and gun forum ninjas who debate stopping power and AR vs M1A and bullet yaw and max effective range could stand to shoot one of these matches and realize it has most to do about the rifleman and only a bit about the rifle
  • I can't imagine having to do this when the targets are shooting back
 
I shoot Highpower once a month. 300, 500,600 yrds. Use as issue sights, handloaded ammo. :D The same rifle I will have with me. :evil:

Oneshooter
Livin in texas
 
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