Inherent Cartridge Accuracy

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Durango_Dave

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I often hear people (even shooting professionals such as Jerry Miculek) say that such n' such caliber is an extremely accurate cartridge. When I hear anyone make such a blanket statement I think they have a gun in that caliber that they can shoot accurately.

Are certain calibers inherently more accurate than others or is it just the gun and barrel that determine accuracy?

You never hear anyone say such n' such cartridge is inherently not very accurate.

The 22LR is a design that was outdated 150 years ago. That's how long ago it's been since heeled bullets were considered a good design. The first metallic cartridges were heeled bullets. The Russian government told Smith & Wesson "we like your model 3 revolver but don't like the heeled bullet it shoots". I hate to admit it but the Russians are the ones that told the Americans to get rid of the heeled bullets. Since then heeled bullets went away everywhere except for the 22LR. Most 22LR guns are very accurate even with the heeled bullets.

Smith & Wesson Model 3 Schofield.jpg

I can't shoot worth a crap with my Schofield. It's my least accurate gun. And my Ruger Vaquero isn't much better. Both are chambered in 45 Colt. Then I switch to my S&W Model 29 chambered in .44 magnum and it's bullseye after bullseye.

Ruger Vaquero Birdshead and holster.jpg

Now I'm wondering if some cartridges are more accurate than others.

I have 3 revolvers chambered in 38 Special and they're all tack drivers.
Ruger Blackhawk.jpg
Even my snubby

Smith & Wesson 637.jpg

Are some cartridges more accurate than other?
Now I'm sure someone will post that they can shoot off the hind leg of a gnat at 50 yards with their 45 colt. Yea but is it an uphill battle when a manufacturer tries to make an accurate gun out of a bad cartridge?
 
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I think its more the gun type than the guns caliber that makes the difference. I have or have had both SA and DA revolvers in the same caliber, and I always seem to shoot better with the DA guns in DA. The SA lock time and light trigger kills me there.
 
No cartridge is inherently accurate or inaccurate. I've had 22lr and 9mm that were accurate and some that sucked.
The gun and the ammo has more to do with accuracy than the cartridge.
 
I think it's a gun, ammo and cartridge loading.
For example with 22lr I find that 36 to 40 grain bullets that are standard velocity to in include subsonics are usually pretty accurate.
Once you get outside of that zone like with cci stingers or cci quiet the groups kind of suck.
My most accurate 22LR rifle round so far is new Remington subsonics followed by winchester power point.
Most accurate hand gun ammo is winchester Silvertip.
But silvertip out of a rifle are kind of meh.
 
Ask the 6.5 Creedmoor fanboys. Apparently every single one of those cartridges is a laser guided projectile that can't miss the gnats hind leg that was mentioned.

On a serious note, when it comes to hand gun cartridges, I don't think 99.9% of us can honestly shoot any of them to their full mechanical potential.
True, there have been a few guns/designs/ platforms that haven't performed well. But like you mentioned even an obsolete heeled bullet in a .22 can be accurate.
 
Ask the 6.5 Creedmoor fanboys. Apparently every single one of those cartridges is a laser guided projectile that can't miss the gnats hind leg that was mentioned.

On a serious note, when it comes to hand gun cartridges, I don't think 99.9% of us can honestly shoot any of them to their full mechanical potential.
True, there have been a few guns/designs/ platforms that haven't performed well. But like you mentioned even an obsolete heeled bullet in a .22 can be accurate.
Once I started "benching" my handguns and doing ladders on charge weights, I realized how accurate most of them could be. It made a big difference in the accuracy (Duh) but once I could see what they were capable of, I started doing a better job with my sight picture and trigger release.

I think some platforms are inherently accurate, due to the combo of recoil, sights, trigger and refinement of the ammo. The 6" K38 and 148gr Wadcutter ammo come to mind.
 
Personally I think it comes down to the bullet in said cartridge.

Just last weekend the wife and I went out and shot 22's. One box of ammo was all over the paper with both of us shooting. Another box was everything covered by your hand. The difference was a couple things, different brand and different bullet.

I think it all comes down to the cartridge and how it is loaded.

I have seen groups really shrink when I started handloading, I had all the control.

I would bet you would have better results if you loaded for the guns you are having issues with.
 
I don't think it applies to handguns or handgun cartridges. It does apply, though probably not as much as advertised, to rifle cartridges.
 
If it were simply the bullet, then wouldnt you expect the same accuracy from anything you shot it out of?

I think its a lot more complex than just this or that, but I expect the same ammo to shoot at least reasonably well, from anything I shoot it out of.

If I want something that's going to shoot bug or rat hole groups, then that becomes something else.
 
If it were simply the bullet, then wouldn't you expect the same accuracy from anything you shot it out of?
The bullet diameter should be .002" larger than the grove diameter of the barrel. That shouldn't be an issue if you shoot modern guns with modern ammo. But if you shoot antique guns you should slug your barrel.
The hardness of lead bullets also matters. If you shoot low velocity such as cowboy loads you should use softer lead (lower brinell number). But if you shoot those same bullets at high velocities your barrel will lead up. A harder lead (higher brinell number) is better for high velocities.
I hand load and these are issues I've addressed with my 45 Colt handloads.
 
In my hands it takes a really awful pistol load to be recognizable. At some level of inherent accuracy, the randomness on target is all due to me.

However, I do believe that some pistol cartridges are “more inherently accurate”. I have been reading for over a decade about reloads for the 44 Russian and I was intrigued by an article by Mike Venturino that the 44 Special was nothing special in accuracy, but he showed two high round targets that were one hole groups with the 45 ACP and the 44 Russian as examples of inherently accurate cartridges. Mr Venturino uses a Ransom rest to shoot, so he is eliminating human error.

These articles add substance to Mr Venturino’s claims that the 44 Russian is an exceptionally accurate cartridge.

Reloading an American Classic, John Taffin Aug 2017 Guns Magazine

44 Russian Pet Loads Brian Pearce Handloader Sept 2022

Mr Pearce provides chronograph data, as a typical gunwriter his data set is incomplete, he does not provide sample sizes for his velocity claims. But he does say with certain powders the 44 Russian provides single digit extreme spreads with five shot strings. I consider five shot data groups to be beneath contempt, but if the ES’s were less than 20 fps for large, lets say 40 to 50 shot groups, that would be exceptional. I have few rifle loads that have extreme spreads less than or equal to 20 fps, just scanning a few pages of my pistol data, I see lots of ES spreads in the 80’s, with a 357 Magnum 146 fps. So something is going on inside that 44 Russian case, and I don’t know what it is. Maybe a balance of air space, column height, and primer ignition capabilities. The role of the primer to provide uniform combustion in the case is almost totally ignored in the shooting community. We can’t measure it, so we ignore it.

Something in common with the 44 Russian and the 45 ACP is that they are short and squat and have very little air space. The most successful powders in both are fast burning powders, which over my chronographs, have consistently resulted in tighter extreme spreads and standard deviations.

The 45 ACP is an exceptionally accurate pistol cartridge. It dominates NRA centerfire and 45 caliber Bullseye pistol events and has done so beyond living memory. The 9mm made a short splash about 20 years ago, but faded. I asked those who have, or who have shot the 9mm in Bullseye Competition why they did not like that cartridge, and the answer comes down to recoil impulse. The 9mm has to be pushed fast, close to 1200 fps with 115 grain bullet to be accurate at 50 yards, and probably 25 yards. While its recoil is less than a target 45ACP, the recoil impulse is snappy and throws the good shooters off their timing, and one shooter claimed the recoil knocked his hand off to the side. So sometimes the inherent accuracy of a cartridge is not the ultimate reason you don’t see it in competition, there are other, very subtle human factor issues.

The 38 Special was a top competitive round for decades, and it is very easy to load accurate ammunition, up and down the velocity limits of the cartridge. One of the most popular target rounds used to be a 148 LWC or HBWC with 2.7 ish grains of Bullseye. The desired velocity is a velocity around 700 to 740 fps, for ballistic stability at 50 yards.

Colt Python Stainless Steel, 6" Barrel
24 Sept 1999 T = 78 ° F

Ave Vel = 710
Std Dev 18
ES = 72.02
High = 746.1
Low = 674
N umber rounds= 32

I do believe there are “inherently” accurate rifle case designs. I got to talk to a cartridge case manufacturer at a Regional, limited time for yakking, but I got a flavor of things.

It used to be that pressures were modeled at uniform within the case. This is a reasonable assumption, and since the instrumentation did not exist to test this, this was how combustion versus time was assumed. That the pressure in the cartridge case was uniform through out the pressure curve with time. As pressures went up, pressure in the case was the same pressure at each instant in time.

This is apparently wrong! The cartridge maker claimed that modern cartridge designers are getting 80 kpsia right at the shoulders of their cases. They are measuring pressure variations within the case with time. That is remarkable, not at all intuitive, but nature does its own thing.

I believe this increased, but localized pressures are doing a better job of powder combustion. I do know, raise pressures, and the amount of powder that burns increases. I am going to guess the combustion is more uniform and complete in these cases. Maybe this is one of the reasons these more modern case designs are producing outstanding results at distance. I do know my friends report very tight standard deviations and extreme spreads.

I do know that broad, sharp shoulders and rigid sidewalls are important for primer ignition. Again, the role of the primer for good and proper ignition is almost totally ignored as a factor by the shooting community. But anyone who went from point ignition to high energy ignition can tell you, you see the affects of strong ignition on a cold morning. I am absolutely certain this is true for rifle and pistol cartridges. I have had more misfires and hangfires with my 35 Whelen cartridges than any other, and that case has small, and shallow case shoulders.



bCpDrWy.jpg

It is apparent to me, that the force of the firing pin is being dissipated in sizing the case, and that results in temperamental ignition. I now size 35 Whelan cases to chamber size, or a little crush fit, I use the most sensitive primers I can find (Federal) and I have changed out firing pins to increase firing pin protrusion. This case is extremely sensitive to off center firing pin hits, which cause misfires. After enough monkeying,

my Ruger #1, (sent back to factory to correct excessive firing pin offset)

kQOicF4.jpg

my M1903 Sporter, (stronger mainspring, longer firing pin, minimum case clearance in chamber)

moWBT5l.jpg

and my Dumoulin Mauser (longer firing pin, above average strength mainspring)

IoyDYvV.jpg

and now I have reliable ignition in these rifles. Never had a problem with my 2016 Remington M700, and don’t know why. It goes bang very reliably.

tgLZhpw.jpg

Now these modern case designs have their own limitations. They don’t feed well.

This is a 300 H&H and it is the smoothest feeding case I have

2i0Cn8F.jpg

it is built like a dart. Not having a case shoulder bump within things on the way to the chamber is good, it increases feed reliability. It also allows for double stack magazines. Have you noticed that modern cartridges need single stack magazines. They have to be placed at height, directly in line with the chamber, or they will jam. I don’t like finicky feed and extraction. Just like I don’t like finicky ignition.

However, to those chasing the smallest holes at the furthest distance, feed and extraction are just buzzing annoyances flitting around. My F Class friends shoot single shot rifles without ejectors. They open the bolt all the way back, put their finger tip on the case mouth, and tip the fired round out.

When you are more concerned about function reliability, than pin hole accuracy, than cases start to look like the 7.62 X 39 Russian, an extremely well designed combat cartridge

P1tMmod.jpg

A group like this is contemptible to a bench rest shooter



jzQLKOZ.jpg

But I am happy when I can do that with a sporter rifle, and Core Lokt’s in a 30-06. Keeping all shots within a seven inch circle at 300 yards is beyond my field capability, as I did not carry a 600 lb concrete bench, and forty pounds of sand bags and rests when I hunted. There are some that do, they load up a ton of gear on a ATV, and unload when they get there. Whatever extra accuracy is gained by more modern cartridges is wasted on me. And I am happy to have cartridge that feed and extra without a bunch of fuss. I love my old 30-06, 270 Win, and even 6.5 Swede cartridges. They do everything I need to be done.
 
Are certain calibers inherently more accurate than others or is it just the gun and barrel that determine accuracy?
Yes.

For instance, a compact (not overly elongated or tapered) powder column will combust more consistently. Adding a high-angle shoulder will increase initial pressure, again aiding consistent combustion.

Setting a long neck length will preserve bullet concentricity through handling and feeding. Setting leade position will aid in setting jump-to-lands for the design bullet shape.

So, yes.
 
Take a look at a Lyman reloading manual. Every caliber has a few loads in bold type that are listed as potentially the most accurate, most times they are. I don’t think one round really has major advantages over another it’s the platform that matters most. We are fortunate that over the decades and last century some really accurate combos have been identified possibly on purpose but also maybe by accident. .38 Wadcutters come to mind, so does the .44 Russian. The right bullet at the right pressure in the right platform soon equals a reputation. Put that in the right quality gun and you get winner. Old S&W, Colts and a few others were just hand fit works of art once upon a time. If anything could pull the accuracy out of a round it’s a K38, K22, Triple Lock or Python. Hand and glove!
 
Bullet matters
Barrel matters
Sights matter
Gun fit matters

So many variables, how much time and effort are you willing to spend in the pursuit.

"Accurate" is a relative term. Determine your level of accuracy.
 
I believe in the notion of an inherently accurate cartridge but that it only applies to rifles and is only readily apparent in a narrow context. When granddad is sighting in his deer rifle, no. When top shooters are squeezing every thousandth of an inch out of their benchrest or long range rifles, yes.

When shooting your favorite sixgun at 25yds, hell no. There are so many variables at work in a revolver, it's absurd to think that one cartridge is going to dominate another, strictly due to the cartridge itself. There are accurate guns and there are more or less accurate loads in certain guns. If a cartridge is considered by some to be "inherently accurate", then it's the guns that chamber it that are typically inherently accurate. For example, the .45Colt has dimensions that are all over the place. Some guns have huge throats, some have small throats. Nearly all have sloppy chambers. Some .45Colt's are going to shoot like crap because slinging a .451" bullet through a .458" throat on its way to a pitted bore is like throwing a cat down a hallway. The same load is likely to shoot cloverleafs out of a Freedom Arms.
 
I've had my eye on one of those little birds-head Vaqueros. Can you say why you find it difficult to shoot? The grip, the sights, the weight?
 
re: handguns ...
Just what I recall from the reports from the olden bullseye matches where they shot rimfire, "centerfire," and .45 matches. Rimfire was always .22, although might have been Shorts (memory?) but the more accurate LR because that was the only common rimfire and some very accurate pistols were available; .45 was .45 acp, again since the most accurate pistols were acp, rather than .45 colt; as to "centerfire" with the exception of the occasional .32 revolver, the .38 special was deemed the most accurate [inherently?] cartridge based upon the balanced full wadcutter plus the most consistent head spacing off the rim. As I recall, early centerfire matches were ruled by .38spl revolvers. Then S&W came forward with the M-52 semiauto that fed the full WC and the rimmed cartridge (limited to 5 round magazine) that [I *think*] head spaced on the rim rather than case mouth. Again, more accurate?

My remembered readings centered (no pun intended) around the .38 spl magical inherent accuracy, and everybody knew it (modicum of sarcasm here), and thus the 3 gun bullseye match was most always only competitive with the .22 (accurate S&W most often), the Colt .45acp Gold Cup nee National Match, and some quality variation of .38spl in revolver or Smith 52, always because of the cartridge's "inherent accuracy" due to cartridge design. One may ask "why not the .357 mag?" Valid question, apparently answered by it not existing at the time, and later too much pressure and length for the M52 that dominated at the time.

Is the .38spl inherently accurate?

-jb, trying hard to not spread the dreaded disinformation
 
A good bit of the accuracy puzzle of it is the shooter, too. Subconsciously, you know the .22 LR is a pussycat and the .38 Spl. is not too far behind on the comfort-to-shoot scale. No hurt, no big bang, less anticipatory flinching from the average person behind the gun. (The true experts are better at controlling this than I.)

Move up the power scale, now the brain is expecting more kick, more boom, etc. and it goes into protect-the-body mode. Even if the recoil energy is the same, the thought that it will kick more is potentially a factor in a flinch (or a snatch-at-the-trigger,etc.) causing groups to open up. (I can admit it is with me :(!)

I’ve had guns that were inaccurate, like my S&W Model 14-3 that had a slight barrel bulge by the muzzle that threw off accuracy, and I’ve fired a load or two that some guns didn’t like, but I cant recall any cartridges that were bad in and of themselves. In my case, 9 times out of 10 its the man behind the trigger chunking shots when I am at the range, not the cartridge itself. ;)

Stay safe.
 
I like the gun. I just can't shoot it as accurately as my 38 special revolvers.
I do not shoot my 3.5” silver Ruger Wrangler birdshead as well as my 4” black Wrangler, its not even close.

In my case the sights and sight radius, different grip, and heavy trigger pull conspire to make the birdshead less accurate in my mitts.

I have darkened the sights and improved the trigger, but the shorter birdshead still doesn’t shoot as accurately as the longer gun with the full grip does.

Stay safe.
 
The 9mm is my waterloo. I just can't get the accuracy from it that I do with other calibers. Maybe I just haven't hit the jackpot with the right gun and load combination but I have tried several guns an a lot of different loads. Even my 1911 in 9mm doesn't get close to equaling any of the ones in 45 I have owned.
 
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The 9mm is my waterloo. I just can't get the accuracy from it that I do with other calibers. Maybe I just haven't hit the jackpot with the right gun and load combination but I have tried several guns an a lot of different loads. Even mu 1911 in 9mm doesn't get close to equaling any of the ones in 45 I have owned.
Sounds like you've tried several 9mm guns but the first compact I bought was a 9mm Taurus G2C. I couldn't shoot that worth a crap at first. Dryfiring with a laser sight made me realize I was moving the gun as I was pulling the trigger. It was all because of the small size of the gun. I would have to pull the trigger in further into my palm before firing. With practice I have improved a lot. I have also purchased MantisX which also helps tremendously for training.
 
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