Inlines Using Modern Primers Reclassified as Firearms by BATF

[arcticap]

An FFL holder on another forum has posted today that during his annual inspection, he was given a new BATF regulation [below] that says any inline muzzle loader
using a modern primer is now classified as a firearm and will need to have a background check and a form 4473 filled out.

They're saying that modern conventional firearm primers do not meet the definition of antique firearms and are subject to regulation as a firearm.

This can also be found on the ATF website.
"Primers are not an antique ignition system and are ammunition for firearms subject to regulation." [SEE PAGE 7] ---->>> https://www.atf.gov/file/83981/download

Weren't the modern primers designed before or in 1898?

The page below is what the FFL was given.

 

[troy fairweather]

Boxer primers came out before smokeless was even thought about. I would not call them modern at all. Edward boxer got his patten in 1866 in England and usa in 1869.

 

[edwardware]

So if I make a breach plug that uses an LRP for my inline:
1) Have I made a firearm?
2) If so, how many firearms have I made? 1 (the plug?, the receiver?) or 2 (both)?
3) How long 'till the use of Pyrodex 'creates' a firearm? After all, Pyrodex is modern, unlike boxer primers.

 

[noelf2]

Yet, Midway USA and others are still selling them as unregulated BP guns. I'm not believing this. It was a "discussion". It is not a new regulation, and I doubt it ever will be. One never knows.

 

[edwardware]

Yet, Midway USA and others are still selling them as unregulated BP guns.

Given the 1996 date, I suspect that an adult at BATF got wind if it and told the children to hush before they stirred up trouble.

I do not envy that agency.

 

[noelf2]

Read "Muzzle loading Firearms" starting on page 2 of this FFL newsletter from 2005. https://www.atf.gov/file/56421/download

 

[arcticap]

Given the 1996 date, I suspect that an adult at BATF got wind if it and told the children to hush before they stirred up trouble.

I do not envy that agency.

Even though the thread was posted today, I guess that I fell for it hook, line and sinker.
I apologize for reporting about it if it was posted as a hoax.
I certainly did not post it as a hoax and reported the original thread and requested for it to be deleted.
Here's the thread:--->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...regulation-on-inlne-muzzleloaders#post4646769

 

[Patocazador]

I do not envy that agency.

ATF's field agents are overzealous idiots. When I had an FFL, an agent wrote me up for not listing a T/C Hawken in my Firearms book. He also wrote me up for having my ammo purchases in the same folder as the firearms book. He gave me a notice to appear in federal court in Atlanta 450 miles away even though there are at least 5 federal courts closer.
I appealed to his superiors in Tampa and they agreed with me. He never appeared at my business again but other idiots did.

 

[newfalguy101]

some pb guns ARE considered "firearms", however, I want to say it has to do with being able to swap barrels to use centerfire ammunition.....

The firing system didn't have anything to do with it, that I recall

 

[Carl N. Brown]

https://www.atf.gov/file/56421/download

FFL Newsletter February 2005

MUZZLE LOADING FIREARMS

We frequently receive questions concerning the sale
of modern in-line muzzle loading rifles. Several
years ago ATF determined that an in-line muzzle
loading rifle using #209 shotgun primers for
ignition was not an antique firearm and was subject
to all provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA).
However, the GCA was amended in 1998 and
many in-line muzzle loading rifles are now antique
firearms and are excluded from the provisions of
the GCA.

As defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C.
the term “antique firearm” means –
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in
subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
fixed ammunition which is no longer
manufactured in the United States and which
is not readily available in the ordinary channels
of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading
shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is
designed to use black powder, or a black
powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed
ammunition. For purposes of this
subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall
not include any weapon which incorporates a
firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is
converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any
muzzle loading weapon which can be readily
converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing
the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any
combination thereof.

Many modern in-line muzzleloaders including those
that use #209 shotgun primers for ignition now meet
the definition of “antique firearm” and are excluded
from the provisions of the GCA. However, there are
some muzzleloaders that are still firearms subject to
GCA controls. For example, firearms which can be
switched from muzzleloaders to breechloaders by
exchanging the barrel are still GCA firearms. In
addition, a modern firearm that is altered to function as
a muzzleloader is still a firearm.

The following are some examples of muzzleloaders
that are still GCA firearms:
Thompson Center G2 Contender 209-45
Thompson Center Encore 209-50
The H&R 1871 Huntsman
Rossi S50
Mauser 98 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel
Remington 870 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel
Mossberg 500 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel

Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA
controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition,
including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA
controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from
possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique
firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited
from possessing and receiving ammunition, including
shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n)
of the GCA respectively. Such persons may possess
ammunition for antique firearms such as percussion
caps, minie balls, and 50 pounds or less of black
powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes.
Antique firearms are still subject to whatever State laws
and local ordinances may apply.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have seen import restrictions on muzzleloaders that are designed or converted to use conventional rifle, pistol or shotgun primers (not "antique" caplock, flintlock, or matchlock ignition): barrel length must be 16" or greater for rifles, 18" or greater for shotguns, and rifle and shotgun overall length must be 26" or greater IF the gun uses "modern" ignition. A short muzzleloading shotgun replica as used by the Confederate Cavalry (typically 14" barrels) would be allowed if flintlock or caplock like the originals, but NFA rules apply if it is inline with modern primer ignition.
I not only saw it, I found it again on the atf.gov website:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks for the heads-up on that.

LD

 

[arcticap]

I have seen import restrictions on muzzleloaders that are designed or converted to use conventional rifle, pistol or shotgun primers (not "antique" caplock, flintlock, or matchlock ignition): barrel length must be 16" or greater for rifles, 18" or greater for shotguns, and rifle and shotgun overall length must be 26" or greater IF the gun uses "modern" ignition. A short muzzleloading shotgun replica as used by the Confederate Cavalry (typically 14" barrels) would be allowed if flintlock or caplock like the originals, but NFA rules apply if it is inline with modern primer ignition.
I not only saw it, I found it again on the atf.gov website:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

I don't see the word inline on that page at all.
And I can't find what you are referring to at all.
Why is American Gun Craft marketing the Diablo 12 gauge double barrel smoothbore pistol that uses 209's if it's NFA?
The company states otherwise:

"All AGC products including pistols and rifles can be shipped directly to the customer.

No FFL or dealer license is required."

https://americanguncraft.com/terms-conditions/

 

[Carl N. Brown]

^ Good question. Wish I had an answer I felt safe with. Importers can't import some firearms but they can be made domestically.

The ATF Firearms and Explosives Imports Branch (FEIB) Guidebook Sep 2009* uses the term "primitive ignition system identified as an exempting characteristic" to NFA length restrictions for muzzleloaders. "Primitive ignition system" may now include in-line primed imports (or not).

AmericanGuncraft.com: "AGC represents a consortium of manufactures with manufacturing facilities in two locations: Indianapolis and Houston."
So they are not imports. But muzzleloading pistols can be smoothbore or rifled. An ATF source from 2013 defined antique firearms as using "matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system". Similar type of ignition system has excluded and then in an about face after 1998 includes in-line primed systems.

*ATF Guidebook - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition, and Implements of War
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...rearms-ammunition-and-implements-war/download

Added: ATF also has "Antique Ignition Systems" in the GCA definition for antique firearms with four illustrations: matchlock, wheellock, flintlock, and caplock.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

 

[Snidely70431]

The ATF is a prime example of a governmental agency which maintains and extends its power through the logic of "Catch 22".

A catch-22 is a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules or limitations.[1][2] The term was coined by Joseph Heller, who used it in his 1961 novel Catch-22.

An example is:

"How am I supposed to gain experience [to find a good job] if I'm constantly not hired because I don't have experience?"[3]
Catch-22s often result from rules, regulations, or procedures that an individual is subject to, but has no control over, because to fight the rule is to accept it. Another example is a situation in which someone is in need of something that can only be had by not being in need of it (e.g, a bank will never issue someone a loan if they need the money). One connotation of the term is that the creators of the "catch-22" situation have created arbitrary rules in order to justify and conceal their own abuse of power.

 

[arcticap]

For those who didn't follow the original CB thread, the FFL dealer said that he did call the ATF to inquire about being handed the old paper and was told that it was partially incorrect.--->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...uzzleloaders&p=4647293&viewfull=1#post4647293

The 4473 is only required for models that can readily take a modern ammo barrel, and prohibited persons cannot legally possess or receive ammunition and 209 shotgun primers.

 

[AlexanderA]

Interesting that a cartridge gun converted with a muzzleloading barrel is a "firearm" but a cap-and-ball revolver that can accept a drop-in cartridge cylinder is not. If a dealer sells a cap-and-ball revolver with the cartridge cylinder installed, a Form 4473 is required, but if they are sold in separate boxes (even in the same transaction), it's a "non gun" and the form is not required.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Thank you for the clarification Carl N. Brown.

 

[PapaG]

I envy those of you who live in enlightened states. Illinois considers all black powder guns the same as modern.

 

[Gordon]

" any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading
shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is
designed to use black powder, or a black
powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed
ammunition. "

 

[Snidely70431]

Interesting that a cartridge gun converted with a muzzleloading barrel is a "firearm" but a cap-and-ball revolver that can accept a drop-in cartridge cylinder is not. If a dealer sells a cap-and-ball revolver with the cartridge cylinder installed, a Form 4473 is required, but if they are sold in separate boxes (even in the same transaction), it's a "non gun" and the form is not required.

Laws do not have to make sense. Law makers write laws and other people have to live with them, at least until or unless someone can have the law overturned, at great expense.

 

[midland man]

Laws do not have to make sense. Law makers write laws and other people have to live with them, at least until or unless someone can have the law overturned, at great expense.

and the Democrats are doing a great job at that! ;(

 

[Snidely70431]

and the Democrats are doing a great job at that! ;(

Be fair. Nonsensical laws are a bipartisan enterprise. It is just that Democrats seem to want more laws that infringe on an American's right to keep and bear arms.

 

[shoobe01]

Could someone change the title of this thread, and add a clarifying intro to the OP?

 

[Roger Laird]

Interesting that a cartridge gun converted with a muzzleloading barrel is a "firearm" but a cap-and-ball revolver that can accept a drop-in cartridge cylinder is not. If a dealer sells a cap-and-ball revolver with the cartridge cylinder installed, a Form 4473 is required, but if they are sold in separate boxes (even in the same transaction), it's a "non gun" and the form is not required.

It is also interesting on the consumer end that once you have installed the drop in cylinder you have manufactured a modern firearm and are subject to those charges on the federal level