Interested in ARs, not sure where to start

[frayluisfan]

Hi, guys.

I've been around hunting (birds and big game) all my life, and have done a bit of IPSC, but have never been around ARs. I've been reading a lot about them, but I've never shot one, so I have a pile of questions, and no one really to ask. Was hoping y'all could help out a bit.

What I'm looking for: A reasonably priced (under $1000) semi-auto deer rifle that can also do double duty as a self-defense rifle in the case of riots, hurricanes, etc. It would be ideal if what I eventually get could serve as a first deer rifle for my kids. I have been thinking about an AR in .243.

1. If you buy an AR in .243, can you then also buy an upper barrel assembly in .223 for dedicated self-defense and economical plinking? I'm a bit confused about how you can switch calibers and have the magazines fit.

2. I've been told that ARs in .308 kick pretty hard...any thoughts? (I hunt with a .338 Win mag, so a .308 doesn't scare me, but are quick follow-up shots a problem with a .308 AR in a self-defense scenario?)

3. I've thought about a Remington semi-auto deer rifle, like the model 750, which is not AR at all but is semi auto in a good dual-purpose (hunting, self-defense) round like .243. Does anyone know how the magazines are to load? Is it a pain? Is this option worse than an AR? The Remington is *way* cheaper than most ARs, and I've thought about it as a compromise option (economics is a factor).

Please let me say thanks in advance for your advice. I've always been appreciative of how THR folks are patient with newbie questions.

frayluisfan

 

[navajo]

AR

No, a .243 upper will not fit on a .223 lower. .243 case is way too long.
Yes, a .243 upper will fit a .308 lower. Same length case.
I have found that .308 carbines with collapsable stocks have noticeable recoil. Fixed stock, full length rifles do not. Nor do fixed stock carbines. At least for me.
Personaly I would not hunt deer with a .223, but thats just me.
Self defense, either/or.

 

[Redlg155]

Answer to #1.

An AR15 in .223 will be able to use caliber conversions by changing the upper and and depending on the caliber, sometimes the magazine. However, the limitations are the overall length of the .223 cartridge....or more to the point, what can fit into a .223 length magazine.

The AR15 in .243 is different in that the lower reciever has been lengthened to accomodate a .308 winchester length cartridge and corresponding magazine. If you did a side by side comparison of the two cartridges and magazines you would definitely see a difference. The AR15 in the .308 length will also have an upper that is elongated as well.

So, No....you cannot buy a .223 size upper for a .308 size lower.

Answer to #2.

The recoil of a .308 AR is not very much. Definitely much less than my M1a.
As for follow up shots with the.308, you'll probably be more concerned as to what damage the first shot did! I'd consider the .308 as more of an offensive cartridge rather than defensive.

Answer to #3.

For a hunting rifle, the Remington would serve you well. However, when deciding to go the self defense route, especially with the home, you would definitely want to consider the .223 AR, especially so with frangible ammo if overpenetration is a concern.


The beauty of the AR platform in .223 is that it can be modified to whatever mission you may choose, from medium size game to varmint hunting to having the ultimate self defense rifle complete with lasers and lighting systems. Using heavier weight bullets will allow you to make humane kills on deer size game, although you may have to take greater care on waiting for the best shot for maximum penetration.

One last note...I would get a 20" version for an all around rifle. The extra velocity and increased sight radius would be beneficial. The kids will like it as well. I've seen too many folks with the 16" versions that were tricked out with lasers and what not that couldn't hit a frying pan suspended in front of their faces.

 

[ugaarguy]

What I'm looking for: A reasonably priced (under $1000) semi-auto deer rifle that can also do double duty as a self-defense rifle in the case of riots, hurricanes, etc. It would be ideal if what I eventually get could serve as a first deer rifle for my kids. I have been thinking about an AR in .243.

It's well known here on THR that I'm an AR fan. However, an AR may not be the best for your intended purpose.

3. I've thought about a Remington semi-auto deer rifle, like the model 750, which is not AR at all but is semi auto in a good dual-purpose (hunting, self-defense) round like .243. Does anyone know how the magazines are to load? Is it a pain? Is this option worse than an AR? The Remington is *way* cheaper than most ARs, and I've thought about it as a compromise option (economics is a factor).

I think an SKS would be a far better, and even more economical compromise. The Remington semi-autos just aren't that reliable long term. 7.62x39 is ballistically a near twin of the .30-30 Win cartridge, so no worries on deer size game. The rifle is very rugged and cheap, and the ammo is cheap too.

If you do go with an AR I'd buy a complete 5.56 gun first. From there you can switch to 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel with an upper and mag change for hunting. Switching the upper is an easy two push pin swap procedure. .22LR through a 5.56mm AR with a bolt carrier group caliber conversion unit, and Black Dog Machine 27 round mags is quite fun as well.

I have found that .308 carbines with collapsable stocks have noticeable recoil. Fixed stock, full length rifles do not. Nor do fixed stock carbines. At least for me.

I'm an adult with somewhat short arms (heck I'm short period) and I find .308 ARs with rifle length stocks and their longer uppers to push the edge of comfort for how far out my support hand is. I'm not sure a .243 / .308 size AR would be a great kids' first deer rifle.

 

[DnPRK]

The vast majority of ARs come in two action lengths: short and medium.

Short action ARs are civilian derivatives of the military M-16 and come in the following calibers:
17HMR
22LR
204 Ruger
222 Remington
223 Remington/5.56 NATO (<<< the most common)
6mm x47
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
7.62x39
300 whisper
9mm Luger
450 Bushmaster
458 SOCOM
50 Beowulf
maybe some others I've forgotten
There are over a dozen short action AR manufacturers. The specs are pretty much standard, so you can purchase any upper assembly and it will mate up and run with your lower receiver. Short action upper receivers are too short to fit a medium action lower.

Recoil is negligible unless you're shooting heavy bullets like a 450 Bushmaster/458 SOCOM/50Beowulf. Even then, recoil isn't bad because the short action's tiny bolt head isn't designed to withstand the pressures generated by shoulder-dislocating cartridges.

Medium action ARs mimic the original Fairchild AR-10 chambered in 7.62 NATO. There are a half dozen makers of medium action ARs that shoot cartridges based on the 308 Win/7.62 NATO. Calibers include:
22-250
243 Win
6mm WOA
6.5 Creemoor
260 Remington
7mm-08
308 Win/7.62 NATO (<<< the most common)
300 Rem SAUM
338 Federal
and maybe some others I forgot
Specs for medium action ARs are specific to the manufacturer, so many parts do not interchange. Medium action uppers are too long to fit on short action lowers.

I have a 308 carbine that probably weighs a little over 7.5 lbs. I don't consider it's recoil to be significantly different from that of my M-1 Garand or M-1A. The AR's straight stock design makes recoil more of a straight back shove rather than a thump with lots of muzzle rise (like your 338 Win Mag). That makes it pretty easy to get back on target for a second or 3rd shot.

The AR newby's most disconcerting experience is the SPROIIIIIING you'll hear when you shoot an AR as the buffer spring that operates the action is in the stock below your ear. After a couple or 3 rounds, you'll get used to it.

 

[frayluisfan]

Ak accuracy?

Thanks for all your thoughts so far!

Quick question for ugaarguy: you said
I think an SKS would be a far better, and even more economical compromise. The Remington semi-autos just aren't that reliable long term. 7.62x39 is ballistically a near twin of the .30-30 Win cartridge, so no worries on deer size game. The rifle is very rugged and cheap, and the ammo is cheap too.

What about accuracy? I have a friend who owns an SKS and it's pretty sloppy, accuracy-wise. Can you get, say, 2-3" groups at 100 yds?

Thanks again,
frayluisfan

 

[ugaarguy]

What about accuracy? I have a friend who owns an SKS and it's pretty sloppy, accuracy-wise. Can you get, say, 2-3" groups at 100 yds?

Replacing the rear sight sight with a Mojo peep is a big help. You'll also need to check the bore to make sure it's good, and not pitted / corroded.

If you're interested in an AK search for posts by member H20Man and look at his AKs. There's quite a bit you can do with those. A Saiga in 7.62x39 or 5.56 NATO would be another good option.

My only issue with the AK/Saiga is that they lack the modularity and versatility of an AR. That's why I'd just spend less money and get the SKS, or spend a little more and get an AR. For some folks, though, an AK is exactly what they want.

 

[anymanusa]

My fixed stock 18" DPMS 308 is accurate, but kicks hard as hell. I put a Simms Vib. Lab. buttstock pad on it, and now it is fine. Without the pad though, I didn't care to shoot it more than a dozen or less times. Now I can shoot it all day.