Interesting comment on GB auction

[jgh4445]

I was browsing GB looking for an 1872 5 1/2 inch open top or a nice 1858 when I came across the auction on what is termed a "match conditioned" 1860 Army. It had several things done to it, new springs, screws, cap guard, etc.. Then the guy said that it has had the pinion lengthened so it shoots to POA! What is this pinion lengthening he speaks of? Can it work? How do you do it? Is he saying that all of those months I went trying to fashion a new, taller front sight were for naught if I had only lengthend the pinion? What is the pinion anyway?

 

[Oldnamvet]

Got me. I always thought the pinion was a small gear.

 

[[email protected]]

I agree with GB. You are going to have to lengthen the pinion. When you do,
you will probably have to bob it a bit. I had to bob mine and adjust the slippage
as well, but that was on my Remimgton. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Fingers McGee]

I'm not sure what a pinion is either. Could he have meant that he had to lengthen the arbor so it would shoot POA.

 

[BowerR64]

I agree with GB. You are going to have to lengthen the pinion. When you do,
you will probably have to bob it a bit. I had to bob mine and adjust the slippage
as well, but that was on my Remimgton. Your mileage may vary.

There you go again with them technical terms.

I think we need pictures.

 

[Willie Sutton]

It's obviously a lengthened arbor, using a brass pin. This is the fix for the short Uberti arbors... takes an hour to do at home.


Willie

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[jgh4445]

Thanks guys. Willie, how would that have anything to do with POA?

 

[kituwa]

Only thing i can think of that he could be talking about that would change the POA would be the two dowl pins at the bottom of the frame that fit into the barrel. I guess he could have put longer pins in that would bottom out and make the barrel point up more, leaving a gap where the frame/barrel join, or he welded it up and re-machined it there or used a shim to fill it. Thats a rather mickie mouse way to do things and would also require doing the forcing cone to match.

 

[kituwa]

I should have said point down not up. That would require filling off metal where the barrel/frame joined. That would work, but i dont think that would be ideal for accuracy as the barrel would not be the same angle as the chambers then.

 

[Missionary]

Greetings
Lengthening the arbor causes the end of the barrel to point down a shade (not technical). With the barrel pointing more down the impact should also be lower. Sort of like putting that 42 inch smoothie in the tree crotch and tweeking it a bit.
Mike in Peru

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Thanks guys. Willie, how would that have anything to do with POA?"

It makes it repeatable every time you remove and replace the wedge.

The arbors on Uberti's are too short by a few thousandths of an inch. As you press in the wedge, you are literally bending the barrel up in relationship to the frame, and both closing the cylinder gap and raising point of aim. You can press the wedges on many of them in hard enough to jam the cylinder on the barrel, and jam the revolver. A`properly fitted arbor lets the user press in the wedge as hard as he likes, without closing up the gap or raising the point of impact. Colts were properly (hand) fitted. This needs to be done to imports in order to really make them shoot well. There have been several good articles written on how to do it, a little Google will help. Basically you fit a shim at the front of the arbor and then start thinning it up until it's perfect. It's not hard to do, and is essential if you want these to shoot the way they are designed to shoot. If your cylinder gets harder to turn as you press in your wedge (look at the cylinder gap as you tap the wedge with a soft mallet) your arbor is too short.


The revolver being offered has been tuned up a little, it's nothing that you can't do yourself. Once it's correctly set, you can then deal with sights to have it shoot to point of aim. Until the arbor is fitted, worrying about sights is a waste of time, since every time you break it apart for cleaning it'll go back together differently.


If you want a properly fitted 1860, buy the Centaure that's being offered. These "Belgian Colts" are as close to an original as can be made.


Willie


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[kituwa]

Well i agree about the short arbour fix,,but as a way to fix point of aim, not so much.

 

[[email protected]]

I took the two pins out, threw them away. Tapped the two holes for a Allen
head screws. Drilled the two holes in the barrel complete thru for screws.
This worked perfect. Really helped the accuracy. This was 45 years ago.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I might give that a try.

Yes, I swear by my Hege-Remington. But I've long wanted to set up a Colt Navy and see just what one could really be persuaded to do.

 

[[email protected]]

Well with my 1851 Navy set up 45 yrs ago with the two screws holding the
barrel on , I shot. 89 at 50 yds and many 97's-99's at 25 yds. It was a Pietta
And I remember loading 13 grs of GOI which is now Goex powder and cornmeal
filler and I can't remember the ball I used. I think I used Buckshot . Used to
buy it in a 5lb. Cloth bag. I think it was . 395 or .400 dia. That pistol sure would
Shoot. Ex wife stole it in 1976. I hope who ever has it is happy.


Please excuse me, but Mike here is a test report of the Hege against other brands for group
size at 25 meters. As you can see it and the Pietta will shoot under 1 1/2 inches. The group
size is in mm and the powder is Swiss no 2 which is FFF.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

You are going to have to lengthen the pinion. When you do,
you will probably have to bob it a bit.

Won't bobbing it negate the effects of lengthening it? Thereby ending up where you started? I confuzed

 

[ivankerley]

Won't bobbing it negate the effects of lengthening it? Thereby ending up where you started? I confuzed

i believe theyre saying that you'll file to get a perfect fit after youve added the extender
Gene

 

[dickydalton]

I put a small/thin washer in front of the arbor on my 1862 Police and dropped the point of aim a foot at 40 yards. It's easy to see how short the arbor is by turning the barrel to the side on it.

 

[[email protected]]

Yep, lot of people don't know this can be done. That's how we did it 50 yrs ago.
I used feeler gauge for shim stock.

 

[Willie Sutton]

So, the "Match Conditoned" Army is now safe with me, and has been reunited with it's Brother. That is another identical one that was tuned and modified at the same time, by the same guy, as a matched set. I had bought the other one over a year ago, and it's my go-to Army, and now the pair is reunited.

Basically, the modifications in order of importance are:

1: Lengthen arbor by drilling the end, fitting a brass button, and then fitting it correctly. As a result, the wedges can be pushed in hard, the cylinder gap does not change with wedge tightness, and they are as-fitted by Colt originally.

2: Cylinders are reamed out so that the cylinder is larger than the bore by a few thousands, not the other way aroud as is common. This means the ball is swaged correctly into the rifling and as a result of that, is far more accurate and shooting an undersized ball.

3: Trigger job using Wollf springs, etc.

4: Front sight replaced and then filed to point of aim at 15 yards.

5: Cap rake installed, these absolutely prevent caps from blowing back off the nipple when shot and reduce cap jams to essentially none.

6: Treso nipples are a nice addition.

7: Just cosmetic, but grips stripped and refinished with oil.



These are the things needed to turn a basic Uberti 1860 into a 100% reliable and accurate shooter than you can rely on for functional reliability and accuracy. They should be considered by anyone serious about making the replica revolvers really shoot well. Buying one properly set up for less than the price of the gunsmithing alone is a nice way to find one... ;-)

It's actually the third revolver that I own that was set up by the same smith: The third one is a Uberti Navy that has all of the same modifications, and has been shortened to carry-length, including shortening the rammer. It's another beauty.


Forgive me for being a bit reticent to discuss the modifications prior to securing it, as I wanted to see it rejoin it's partner. The work done is not difficult, but really makes it a perfect shooter. I'm very glad to have it home.


Willie


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[jgh4445]

Glad you got it Willie. I've learned a lot from this thread.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Thanks, and I'll be happy to offer advice on how to tune whatever you buy up. Fixin' and Playin' with these is fun.

In my earlier buy from the same smith, I bought the chamber reamer that is used to ream them out so's as to be the correct dimension for full ball engagement in the bore. I'm off flying for a few months, but would be willing to lend the reamer out to Pards wantin' to ream their own when I get back.


Willie


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[jgh4445]

Great! Put me on the list please.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

believe theyre saying that you'll file to get a perfect fit after youve added the extender

Oh...I thought we were still talking about pinions.

 

[Jim K]

I believe Colt fitted the arbor first by screwing it in to the right point, then drilling and pinning it at the back, then cutting the slot for the key. Still the best way to do it if you can find a blank arbor.

Jim