Interesting discussion with my preacher about gun ownership.....

[osteodoc08]

Had a nice discussion with my preacher about gun ownership. I go to a small town southern Baptist church. Town of maybe 10k.

We were discussing gun ownership and the right to carry as well as legal/illegal places of carry. Of course any place of worship is off limits per GA law.

Anyhow, my preacher quotes Luke 22:36.

".....if you no sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

I would assume Jesus to mean arm yourself in defense of yourself. What say you?

Moderators: If this is "inappropriate" and off topic, feel free to delete.

 

[CJW]

I'm a preacher, too, and here's my take: I don't think Jesus was advocating an armed church necessarily, although Scripture supports the notion of self-defense. That passage is about being generally prepared as a Christian for a hard calling in a hard world. The rest of that text talks about taking a money-bag and extra tunic also. The point is simply: be prepared. Spreading the gospel will be difficult and (sometimes) dangerous work in this world. BTW, I do NOT think pacifism is Scriptural, and I do think everyone with the gift of life has the Biblical right to defend it.

 

[wacki]

BTW, I do NOT think pacifism is Scriptural, and I do think everyone with the gift of life has the Biblical right to defend it.

This is something that has always puzzled me. Preachers never seem to take up arms. I can understand the military exemption.

However, is it common for preachers to believe they can use deadly force to protect the innocent from the unjust? Or does that just apply to others? Do a lot of preachers feel the way you do?

I've always thought that if I can defend myself, so should a preacher. Not sure what the official ruling on that is though. And perceptions may not match reality.

 

[CJW]

Well, I can only speak for this particular preacher. I carry a gun every day, and to church, as do quite a few of the folks in my church. I would not hesitate to defend the innocent from the evil. I think it is a Biblical duty to defend others in the face of harm.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

My preacher is a strong supporter of the second amendment and carries a .38 revolver! Good preaching he does too.

 

[beatledog7]

There are several on this site who have mentioned that they are ministers and many more who say they attend church regularly, sing in the choir, serve as elders and deacon, etc.

Many also carry a gun regularly, some to church. I'm about to have a conversation with my pastoral staff about security; I don't know where it will lead.

 

[Hunter125]

There is a blog post at this website that is very against Christians owning guns, but the comments below is where the real discussion occurs. Some really good thoughts there about exactly what that verse, as well as some others mean. Participating in the discussion really helped me to get a solid biblical foundation for my own reasoning for owning and carrying guns.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/breyeschow/2012/08/27/why-this-christian-will-never-own-a-gun/

 

[swathdiver]

If owning a gun causes you to spend more time on it (obsessing, coveting, false idol/idol worship) than in doing the Lord's work, that is sin. Do you rely on Christ to meet your needs or yourself? If you think of a gun like a door lock or as a tool then you're thinking is probably ok.

As men, the Lord put us in charge of our households and as such we're to protect our wives and children from spiritual as well as physical dangers. The Lord allows evil to happen in this sin cursed world and all things work out to His glory in the end. That being said, I'd rather a would-be rapist die from lead poisoning after witnessing to him, then him being able to carry out his heinous crime on one of my children.

 

[easyg]

Anyhow, my preacher quotes Luke 22:36.

".....if you no sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

I would assume Jesus to mean arm yourself in defense of yourself. What say you?

Jesus was not the man of peace that some think....

St. Matthews 10:34.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace , but a sword."

St. matthews 10:35.

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

 

[Alaska444]

Jesus was not the man of peace that some think....

St. Matthews 10:34.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace , but a sword."

St. matthews 10:35.

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

The sword in those passages is the gospel and the word of God. See Hebrews 4:12. You are right, Jesus is not the man of peace, He is instead the Prince of Peace.

 

[SunnySlopes]

It's a complex subject. First Century Christians allowed themselves to be herded into the colosseums to be murdered without lifting an arm to defend themselves.

Yet Romans 13 talks about the government (and this was written when their government was questionable, at best) wielding the sword against evildoers. And the sword here was definitely not the Word of God. It was an instrument of death.

I was a full-time preacher for over 25 years and had two college diplomas to that effect. But I also carry a gun and will protect my family with lethal force if necessary.

It's a personal decision and doesn't lend itself to simple answers.

I used to be opposed to war. But then I considered it from the perspective of, "what if an ally, a weaker nation, is being attacked by a much stronger aggressor nation. What should we do?" That changed my perspective.

It's a difficult issue.

 

[chris in va]

Of all places, schools and churches need front line defenses, ala Israel.

I attended an 'open carry' church event here in Louisville a couple years ago, got on the news and everything. It was a real eye opener and I fully support protecting the 'flock' as I stated on camera. Another 'church' eas interviewed and they were not in agreement, which blows my mind.

Discuss all you want in regards to what scripture has to say about it, meanwhile the earth still turns and times change. The various churches must adapt.

 

[Hunter125]

In reference to the article mentioned in post 7 , here was my back and forth with the author. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/breyeschow/2012/08/27/why-this-christian-will-never-own-a-gun/#comments

Me:

Bruce,
I appreciate the way you approach this and that you don’t consider this issue to be a test of faith. This is the kind of conversation that I wish we could have on many issues within the church, but so many seem to divide instead of unify.
That said, I have to disagree with your stance and what I believe the Bible says about self defense and the defense of others. Others have mentioned that Jesus told his disciples to take a sword with them, but consider that for Peter to have used his sword at Gethsemane, he was carrying it with him. Why did Jesus say nothing to him before that incident? I believe that Jesus knew what had to happen and knew that a physical fight was not how God would bring salvation. I think this is an isolated incident of Jesus rebuking self defense because of the unique circumstances surrounding it, not a blanket ban on defending oneself.
Having a gun, even carrying a gun, does not make a person more violent, just more prepared. I have never been arrested, never been in a fight, and I do all I can to avoid any kind of conflict. Several people that know me well call me ‘gentle Ben’. All this to say the following: I carry a gun whenever it is legal to do so and train to use it well, actually feel naked without one. I hope I never have any cause to even pull it out of the holster, but if I must to defend my loved ones, I will.
A word on that. Drawing my gun and shooting someone would be my absolute last resort option. I would do everything possible to avoid a situation where my gun was needed, would never provoke a fight or even an argument. But if I truly feel that my life or my loved ones’, or another innocent person’s life, was at stake, I would use it in a heartbeat. Never for personal possesions of any kind, they don’t matter a whit to me, only things of eternal value. I would much rather talk to the guy about Jesus, but if he doesn’t give me an option, I’ll do what I have to.
While I train with my guns in case I have to use them, (I do hunt and shoot recreationally as well), I am also training to be the best Christian witness that I can. I have a BA from a Bible college and am in my second year of Seminary right now. That training is vastly more important to me than that which I do with my guns, but one does not exclude the other.
I respect you for digging in deeply to this issue and sticking to your guns (no pun intended) on what you feel God is calling you to do. I’ll respectfully disagree and go on loving you as a brother in Christ. I hope this discussion and blog post serves to unify the Church and not divide it.

Author:

I think you lift up a good passage to wrestle with. What do you think about this interpretation? http://www.biblestudy.org/question/why-did-jesus-tell-disciples-to-buy-swords.html

My response to the link he posted:

Here’s my thought on the link you shared, without having done an in depth study on this pericope myself.
The fact that Peter actually did have a sword kind of precludes the notion that Jesus wanted them to have knives for food preparation. One can assume that this was one of the swords the disciples presented that were enough for Jesus, though maybe that assumption is a little bold.Peter was obviously carrying a sword in a way that was easily drawn for defense. If Jesus had a problem with that, why did he wait until Peter had injured someone with it to say something?
On the word used for sword: if the Greek word used for sword could mean knife or dirk as well, even if that word is in all passages that mention a sword, what does that change? When I carry a knife for self defense, the same set of rules come with it as come with my gun. The real issue here is not guns, but is self defense a biblical thing. If Peter was carrying a knife or dirk instead of a sword, that changes nothing about what happened, the circumstances, or what Jesus said about it.
Here’s my take, again just my interpretation without having done an in depth studyeter was trying to prevent Jesus’s arrest, something Jesus obviously knew had to be done. Because of the circumstances this does not qualify as a self defense situation to me, especially as Jesus was planning on going without a fight. If that is the case, his rebuke to Peter is not so much about self defense, but that the coming revolution that Jesus was about to start would not be with swords. Salvation is not obtained through any kind of violent means, but only through the death and resurrection of Jesus. Peter was trying to prevent that from happening, I think that’s why Jesus rebuked him.
Another point to mention is that no one’s life was in immediate danger, though it was soon to be. The soldiers were arresting Jesus, not yet beating him or crucifying him. This would equate to someone shooting a police officer arresting their friend and calling it self defense. That shouldn’t fly in anyone’s book.
Just a few thoughts, again without a serious in depth study, so if I’m way off base someone please let me know, but this makes a lot of sense to me.

Sorry for the long post, I think it's pertinent though.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Let's take the Bible out of this discussion. I really don't think we want to travel that path. I suggest instead that we remind people that under the law the Police are not required to protect you. Their job is to go after the criminal once the crime has been committed not stop one from happening. So that means each individual is responsible for their own safety and that of their family. So how do you do that if you don't have the tools you believe you must have to provide that protection. Then from there you can expand into the responsibility every Citizen has when our Government is no longer responsive to the soap box or voting booth. The Second Amendment is after all what protects the Liberties we find it the Bill of Rights. Without the Second Amendment we become "subjects" of our Government not Citizens of a Great Nation.

 

[Hunter125]

I believe the OP brought the Bible into this discussion. If you aren't comfortable with it, feel free to not read/post in this thread.

Making a solid, honest biblical case for self defense and carrying a weapon for that purpose just might be what sways a lot of people who still value the Bible and their faith.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Yes you can make a case for Bibical support just as one can make a case for Bibical support against guns. Too be honest the case against in my opinion would be greater. As for me my Bible sits right there on my ammo shelf. A very busy shelf indeed. It is my belief that our arguments for the RKBA should stay in the realm of the Second Amendment. Keep the argument focused or lose the argument. That's the point. I'm trying to get across.

 

[cambeul41]

These sites may b of interest:
• Christians Bearing Arms http://goo.gl/0Mf5R
• Christian Gun Owner http://goo.gl/JlC2R

 

[homatok]

I believe we each have, not only a right but, an obligation to take whatever steps are necessary, up to and including the use of deadly force, to protect our selves and our loved ones. I would extend that obligation to my neighbors as well!

One thing that has always puzzeled me is how, in times of war, if killing is wrong, religious leaders can , in good concience, bless the troops that are going to kill, even people of their own faith?

 

[CJW]

Just one little light-hearted reminiscence:

I was once preaching a sermon in which I had occasion to repeatedly refer to the second commandment. Twice in the sermon I accidentally said "second amendment" and even though there were a few smiles and a little snickering I did not catch myself. Someone told me after the service, and we all had a good laugh!

 

[JustinJ]

A very busy shelf indeed. It is my belief that our arguments for the RKBA should stay in the realm of the Second Amendment.

Great, because they aren't talking about the legal RKBA. They are talking about an individual choices to carry or use a gun in SD based on christianity. Given we also have a first amendment what the bible does or does not say regarding self defense should have no bearing on the RKBA.

Concerning the discussion about christians using guns i find most try to twist the teachings of Jesus to validate their views rather than form them. They've decided they want to carry and then selectively focus on passages to support that preference while ignoring those that don't.

 

[baz]

I used to be opposed to war. But then I considered it from the perspective of, "what if an ally, a weaker nation, is being attacked by a much stronger aggressor nation. What should we do?" That changed my perspective.

It's a difficult issue.

I agree it is a difficult issue, and one which each will have to decide for himself, before God. But on the question of defending a weaker nation against a stronger nation, a Biblical text of some relevance would be Obediah 1:11, where God judges Edom because she just stood by as Jerusalem was attacked by Babylon.

 

[gunnutery]

I am a Christian and firmly believe that I have a responsibility to defend myself and my family, or anyone in need really. I don't have a list of verses I go to when this subject comes up though.

I've had former pastors bring up the fear that if they shoot someone in SD, they will potentially be providing a way for them to be sent straight to hell, (if they hadn't made their peace with God beforehand). My current pastor is such a pacifist it's nausiating, and he has a wife and five kids. Perhaps he's not truely a pacifist and would defend himself and family, but that he's overly cautious about encouraging others publically to do so.

Nehemiah explains how when the Israelites were rebuilding Jerusalem was being rebuilt, neighboring tribes would start to lead the workers astray into sinning and on the sabbath. Nehemiah warned them that he'd "lay hands on them" if they did not stop. I realize there's a difference between laying on hands and killing, but if one is righteous, where is the line drawn if the response meets the crime.

I also recently heard the theory about Crist's meeting with the centurion. Christ praised him for his faith, yet did not scold him for his line of work- killing and war.

 

[Sam Cade]

I believe we each have, not only a right but, an obligation to take whatever steps are necessary, up to and including the use of deadly force, to protect our selves and our loved ones.

Jesus disagrees.

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

and

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

[Sam Cade]

They've decided they want to carry and then selectively focus on passages to support that preference while ignoring those that don't.

Pick-and-Choose "Christians" are pretty much the rule when you think about it.

 

[taliv]

somewhat ironically, posts about religion almost always devolve into debates.

while the intersection of Christianity/philosophy and guns is "on topic", it will also pre-emptively closed if it looks like it's going to devolve into an off topic debate.