Interesting "No Duty to Retreat" Case

[Bartholomew Roberts]

A woman driving her car witnessed a young man dressed all in black, carrying a "sawed-off shotgun" (which turned out to be a sawed-off pellet gun) and a stocking cap. She thought the man was approaching several terns so she yelled at him to leave the teens alone, at which point he pointed the gun at her. She then ran him over with her car.

Police are not charging her saying she had no duty to retreat in PA. The news report states the young man may have been on his way to rob a local convenience store: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ht-carrying-shotgun--actually-pellet-gun.html

I thought it was an interesting story from a couple of perspectives:

1. People often forget that their daily transportation is a fairly effective deadly weapon in its own right.

2. It was an interesting use of "no duty to retreat" between the driver and a pedestrian and illustrates one way SYG laws might be important in non-firearms self defense where someone tries to evade a robbery/carjacking in their vehicle.

3. If the reporting is to be believed, the woman apparently averted a robbery.

 

[dab102999]

I agree with the outcome by the way the situation progressed. I would like to know how they came to the conclusion he was going to rob someplace. Not that it has anything to do with the outcome for he pointed a weapon and consequences happened because 9f that.

 

[Fred Fuller]

One of the images from the article linked in the OP. Looks like an Airsoft...
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[TRX]

It looked like a firearm.

He pointed it at her.

She ran over him with her car.

Sounds like "suicide by citizen" to me.

 

[kwguy]

Yup.

 

[Kleanbore]

To me, another key point is the distinction between retreating "to the wall" in the days of contact weapons and trying to outrun gunfire.

 

[AKElroy]

My 11 year old has the same air soft, and he plays with the neighborhood kids frequently. Sadly, I have asked them to stick to back-yard play for this very reason.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

As King David said to the servant thy blood be upon thine own head.

 

[dprice3844444]

like the old saying goes,"don't mess with old people"they won't argue with you,they won't fight with you,they will just kill you

 

[Fryerpower]

It looked like a firearm.

He pointed it at her.

She ran over him with her car.

Sounds like "suicide by citizen" to me.

I thought "sawed off air rifle" COULD be mixed up with a real rifle. After seeing the picture I don't see how you could ever think it was an AIR rifle. It looks VERY much like a sawed off shotgun! You are asking for trouble if you point that at someone.

Jim

 

[tyeo098]

My 11 year old has the same air soft, and he plays with the neighborhood kids frequently. Sadly, I have asked them to stick to back-yard play for this very reason.

I used to play airsoft with my friends all the time when I was younger.

#1 rule was don't point it at anyone that wasn't playing.

 

[Deaf Smith]

A woman driving her car witnessed a young man dressed all in black, carrying a "sawed-off shotgun" (which turned out to be a sawed-off pellet gun) and a stocking cap. She thought the man was approaching several terns so she yelled at him to leave the teens alone, at which point he pointed the gun at her. She then ran him over with her car.

Police are not charging her saying she had no duty to retreat in PA. The news report states the young man may have been on his way to rob a local convenience store: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ht-carrying-shotgun--actually-pellet-gun.html

I thought it was an interesting story from a couple of perspectives:

1. People often forget that their daily transportation is a fairly effective deadly weapon in its own right.

2. It was an interesting use of "no duty to retreat" between the driver and a pedestrian and illustrates one way SYG laws might be important in non-firearms self defense where someone tries to evade a robbery/carjacking in their vehicle.

3. If the reporting is to be believed, the woman apparently averted a robbery.

If another person presents a circumstance where you are in fear of your life and the person causing that fear have what seems to be a weapon that can reach you no matter if you retreat or not then you are simply claiming self defense and STG.

That gun she saw in his hands could reach her even if she put the car in reverse. Thus to run him over as simple self defense.

Deaf

 

[stressed]

A woman driving her car witnessed a young man dressed all in black, carrying a "sawed-off shotgun" (which turned out to be a sawed-off pellet gun) and a stocking cap. She thought the man was approaching several terns so she yelled at him to leave the teens alone, at which point he pointed the gun at her. She then ran him over with her car.

Police are not charging her saying she had no duty to retreat in PA. The news report states the young man may have been on his way to rob a local convenience store: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ht-carrying-shotgun--actually-pellet-gun.html

I thought it was an interesting story from a couple of perspectives:

1. People often forget that their daily transportation is a fairly effective deadly weapon in its own right.

2. It was an interesting use of "no duty to retreat" between the driver and a pedestrian and illustrates one way SYG laws might be important in non-firearms self defense where someone tries to evade a robbery/carjacking in their vehicle.

3. If the reporting is to be believed, the woman apparently averted a robbery.

Vehicles are quite lethal in their own right. You know how many threads we see on THR about ethically harvesting deer, and how even "powerful" calibers seem to wound them without proper shot placement?

Well just ask all the roadkill across the nation how well they fared against a motor vehicle. They didn't make it..

It looks like he broke the orange tip off the end of the airsoft gun. Didn't some idiot on here paint the tip of a real 7.62x39mm AK pistol orange and carry it around, and ended up losing his permit to carry because of it? Good riddance.

And to the "armed" thug hit by the car, good riddance.

 

[Pilot]

There is more to this story than you realize. Originally there was no pointing of the assumed gun at her. She ran him over because she thought he was going to do something wrong with the assumed gun.

This stinks guys. The police changed the story, and are covering something up.

 

[SSN Vet]

deleted

oops...

 

[mgkdrgn]

There is more to this story than you realize. Originally there was no pointing of the assumed gun at her. She ran him over because she thought he was going to do something wrong with the assumed gun.

This stinks guys. The police changed the story, and are covering something up.

and we know this to be true how ....

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

and we know this to be true how ....

We know there's more to the story simply because we weren't there to see it. And even if we were, there would likely have been parts we didn't witness or wouldn't have interpreted properly or in the same way someone else would have. All we have is hearsay evidence to go one.

As for a "cover up"...I agree with you wholeheartedly. THAT we don't know and is an unsubstantiated assumption.

 

[Flfiremedic]

The MSMs side of the story sounded pretty bad on her part...but we all know how reliable they can be.
That weapon, especially in a low light environment, could cause a pretty bad outcome for the one brandishing it, and justifiably so.

 

[JAshley73]

That is an interesting statement by the police.

Kentucky also has a castle doctrine. (Without the text in front of me, I'm not going to blatantly assume its the same as a simple 'Stand Your Ground' provision.) However, the text of Kentucky's self defense laws make a written distinction between what must be believed when using a deadly weapon to defend yourself, vs defending others. When defending yourself, you are required to believe that you are acting to defend yourself against death, injury, or other forcible felony, as the situation appears. When defending others, you are required to act as the situation really is. (Paraphrasing of course...) In Kentucky at least, there is a greater burden placed on the individual when they choose to defend another person. (I assume this to be a 3rd party, and not a spouse/child/friend/family member in your proximity and under your care. Again, I need to brush up on the text.)

I'm not sure how the situation will pan out for the woman driving the car. In my home state, the way the law explains anyway, she would have had to have KNOWN FOR FACT that the man was indeed armed and dangerous, and that herself and the teens she was protecting were IN FACT in danger of death/injury/or other forcible felony.

In response to that though, a man did point a weapon at her, real or fake. So I suppose that maybe she would be justified in defending herself. But I don't believe the article stated she was in fear for herself, but rather the teens...

Now, with regard to her Strategies and Tactics, two things stuck out.

1-She followed him in her vehicle. I am hoping that this was from a safe and discreet distance where her attacker was unaware that she was in proximity...

2-She rolled down her window and made contact with the suspect, pleading that he "leave the teenagers alone," or something to that effect. I'm going to call this a bad move, and she was rewarded with a "sawed off shotgun" pointed at her face... How would she have reacted if the man with the gun simply turned and fired? Kinda makes it hard to run him over when you've been shot in the face...

 

[ChCx2744]

I'd say the lady made the right decision, I tell you what. If the events took place as they were told, it turned out great and for the better.

 

[Outlaw Man]

Well just ask all the roadkill across the nation how well they fared against a motor vehicle. They didn't make it.

You've obviously never hit a possum with your car.

Your point is valid, though. They always portray the guy in the movies stepping in front of a car with a pistol. That guy is only going to make me speed up.

If this guy was carrying an air soft gun with the intent of making it look like a real one - whether he intended to rob a store or was just wanting to scare some kids - her car was real. My sympathy for him, however, is not.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Seems we have about wrung this one dry...