Is .300 Winchester Magnum the best choice for the U.S military's sniper rifles?

[M118LR]

SOCOM selects 300 Norma Mag due to smaller action length and less recoil than .338 Lap. while maintaining 1500 Meter performance.

https://www.longrangeshootinghandbook.com/socom-chooses-300-norma-mag-asr/

Background: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/24/unsung-hero-the-mk-248-mod-1/

 

[C0untZer0]

This article says there will be 3 calibers for the Advanced Sniper Rifle - 7.62 NATO, .300 Norma Magnum, and .338 Norma Magnum.

http://www.recoilweb.com/socom-on-the-hunt-for-new-advanced-sniper-rifle-131902.html

The Remington MSR was available in .338 Lapua Magnum, 7.62 NATO, .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Norma Magnum. I'm not sure if the military ever purchased Remington's MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum, the rifle that won the PSR competition was chambered for .338 Lapua

But anyway, it looks like the Marines are adopting 300 Win. Mag. right when SOCOM is dropping it, - SOCOM is dropping .338 Lapua out of their lineup too - but still...

 

[M118LR]

Currently MK 248 Mod 1 is in the NSN System along with the MK 13 Mod 7. Them young fire-eaters are more than able to utilize the extra range afforded by the .300 Win Mag. Those folks that "Drive Marines to work" have already paid for the R&D and tested the combination afield. Sounds like a cost effective practical solution until the "Smoke from long distance shooting clears". JMHO.

 

[mcb]

SOCOM selects 300 Norma Mag due to smaller action length and less recoil than .338 Lap. while maintaining 1500 Meter performance.

https://www.longrangeshootinghandbook.com/socom-chooses-300-norma-mag-asr/

Background: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/24/unsung-hero-the-mk-248-mod-1/

Except 300NM is still based on the 416 Rigby like 338LM/NM and thus larger than a standard Magnum bolt face. So you're shorter but still require a special bolt face. If your going to do that you might as well go with a slightly longer receiver and the larger bolt face and get a 338LM.

JMHO but if I was going to do it "my-way" I would want an XM2010 chassis (with the new PSR skeletonized butt stock) but chambered in 300 RUM. Performance on par with 300NM but in a standard Magnum bolt face and standard 700 receiver.

This article says there will be 3 calibers for the Advanced Sniper Rifle - 7.62 NATO, .300 Norma Magnum, and .338 Norma Magnum.

http://www.recoilweb.com/socom-on-the-hunt-for-new-advanced-sniper-rifle-131902.html

The Remington MSR was available in .338 Lapua Magnum, 7.62 NATO, .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Norma Magnum. I'm not sure if the military ever purchased Remington's MSR chambered in .338 Norma Magnum, the rifle that won the PSR competition was chambered for .338 Lapua

But anyway, it looks like the Marines are adopting 300 Win. Mag. right when SOCOM is dropping it, - SOCOM is dropping .338 Lapua out of their lineup too - but still...

I believe the MSR and the PSR though very similar have differences, namely in the chassis configuration. The PSR was derived from the MSR for the PSR competition. I also believe the systems the Army bought came as a 3-caliber systems, with 7.62 NATO, 300WM and 338LM barrels, bolts and magazines.



Top: XM2010
Middle: MSR
Bottom: PSR

Euro-optics is selling PSR complete 3-caliber kits similar to what shipped to the army for the low-low price of $21,000. By the time I got suitable glass on it it would be worth more than my truck.

 

[Demi-human]

It already costs more than my truck, worth however, is subjective.

I do like that gold one though.

 

[mcb]

It already costs more than my truck, worth however, is subjective.

I do like that gold one though.

I want a XM2010 simply because then you can, with minimal modifications, drop any long action 700 into the chassis. The MSR/PSR use a chassis specific receiver and bolt.

 

[FL-NC]

Y'all would be surprised to see how many different weapons, optics, and everything else from boots to communication gear SOCOM is "looking at" at any one time. That was my job from 2008-2010, when I retired. I still see the guys on a regular basis because we all train at the same location, so I still get to put my hands on the latest stuff and just catch up with the guys. Just because something is being "looked at" doesn't mean anything until after it jumps through a seemingly infinite number of hoops to end up on the property books and into the arms room. The abomination known as SCAR that was going to be "the new system for all SOF units, and replace all M4/AR platforms" is a shining example of what I am talking about. 12 years after all the releases about SCAR and its future role, it occupies a much more humble position in the MTOE than anticipated.

 

[M118LR]

Except 300NM is still based on the 416 Rigby like 338LM/NM and thus larger than a standard Magnum bolt face. So you're shorter but still require a special bolt face. If your going to do that you might as well go with a slightly longer receiver and the larger bolt face and get a 338LM.

Ounces = Pounds. The USMC Traditionally stuck with the M40's 700 SA to save oz's, so it seems that the tradition remains.

The 300NM remains supersonic for a longer distance than the heavier recoiling 338LM, and it appears that the 300NM still delivers enough kinetic energy for SOCOMs envisioned purpose at the longer distance that reduced recoil is of more concern.

But as FL-NC stated, it's doubtful that the MK 13 Mod 7 will be the end-all to the USMC's Sniper Rifle Program, but at least it lets the folks on the front have a little more reach out and touch someone than the M40 allows. The time has come to admit that the 7.62 NATO (M118) isn't a long range round on Today's Battlefield. (Sacrilege I Know) JMHO.

http://www.accuracyinternational.com/aics-chassis-systems/

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Accessories/Rifle-Carbine/RACS.aspx

 

[Archie]

It will more than likely work.

IF (emphasis on "IF" - not only did they not consult me, they didn't even tell me they were going to - I were choosing such a weapon and ammunition, my first question would be "What ranges are normal, what ranges are expected?"

The second question would be, "What calibers are available now to perform that task?" (Not "What calibers will be announced next week or two years from now that will do that task?")

Frankly, I am not a big fan of the 'belted cartridge' design. I see it as a progression of the rimmed or semi-rimmed cartridge case. On the other hand, I would prefer NOT to start a quest to manufacture a rimless .300 Winchester Magnum. Just another non-productive cost. Nor would I favor developing a rifle to contain a 7.62x51mm +P+ round and keeping those rounds carefully away from M14 rifles or others of that ilk. It could be done, but the cost of developing a new action and the headache of segregation would be unwieldy.

No doubt the technology and the problem to be solved will change in a few years. We're getting closer and closer to death ray projectors and won't have to calculate trajectories in the same manner fairly soon.

 

[Nature Boy]

I had this brainstorm.

Since several have linked to evidence that the military is considering the 6.5 CM how about we neck one up to accept a .338 and call it....

The 8.6 Creedmoor.

Market it as an intercontinental ballistic sniper round.

I’m kidding, but sort of serious when I say why in the heck would the military be looking at the 6.5 CM when years ago they evaluated the .260 and for reasons unknown to me didn’t pick it up. Are they buying a better round or buying the hype too?

 

[FL-NC]

Humans aren't that difficult to kill, or at least render into a combat-ineffective state. Thus, the goal of cartridges as they apply to long range engagements isn't ONLY about kinetic energy delivered on target at a given range. The biggest challenge in long range engagements is wind. It is the environmental effect that can vary the most within seconds, and is the most difficult to correct and adjust for. As a former sniper, I was mostly concerned with wind effects on a given projectile. When you consider that a long range engagement under combat conditions often consists of a target being presented with little or no warning, possibly moving (which requires identifying the targets speed and the time of flight of the projectile into the mix), often a brief exposure and window of opportunity, an unknown precise distance (and the further the distance, the more important it is to know, or be as close as possible to knowing the exact distance), along with other factors such as light (or lack of), the physical state of the sniper team, and the overall dynamics of the battlefield, avoiding detection, etc.- suddenly the task of making a successful long range engagement starts to get pretty difficult. Having cut my teeth (and used) multiple rounds and weapons systems in afg., the 338 Lapua (which I have fired, but unfortunately didn't have when I was in the military) look pretty good. having cut my teeth on the M21, M24, and SR-25, the MK13 (300 WM) was a game changer, and the scores in SOTIC proved this, even if it wasn't- and isn't- ideal. Talk to someone who has made engagements past 1,000 meters under combat conditions, and you will probably find yourself in a conversation about trajectories and wind effects.

 

[M118LR]

Shucks, it ain't that hard FL-NC. Just grab a couple K-Rats Crackers, some spare mags, your M14NM, and follow me into the mangroves. LOL LOL

A long,long,long,long time ago, on a Continent far far away............ So much for my Star Wars syndrome..... LOL.

 

[Glockula]

It seems like some people are insinuating that the .338 as the military's standard sniper rifle is some kind of pie-in-the-sky fantasy scenario and the .300 Win.Mag. is practical and the DOD is being practical.

The .338 Lapua Magnum was created to be a long-range sniping round, right from the start. The Marine Corps contacted Jerry Haskins who owned RAI, in 1982 and asked him specifically to develop - from scratch, a long range sniper weapon system. One of the early versions was chambered in .300 Win. Mag but Haskins believed (and was correct, IMO) that a better sniper round could be invented rather than choosing from existing cartridges of the time.

In 1986 the .338/416 cartridge, with a Lapua bullet and case, won the 1000 yard Navy Rifle competition in Quantanico, Virginia.

CPO Chris Kyle recorded a 1,920 m (2,100 yd) kill in Sadr City in 2008 - with his McMillan Tac-338, one of the longest confirmed kills ever and the 4th longest confirmed kill by a United States serviceman. The record for the longest confirmed sniper kill was set by the .338 Lapua Magnum used by British Corporal Craig Harrison with a confirmed kill at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) in 2009, in Afghanistan with his Accuracy International L115A3 and that record stood until last year when it was beaten by a Canadian sniper using a McMillan Tac-50.

The .338 is not some fanciful impractical cartridge. It is a military cartridge, developed for the military from inception as a sniper cartridge. It is a thoroughly field tested, proven in combat, tried-and-true sniper round.

I don't know what was behind the choice of .300 Win. Mag. but it doesn't seem to be a better choice than the .338 Lapua, just from a proven performance stand point.

There is always going to be comprimise on what is "best ". As others have stated what you can reasonably carry, what the logistics chain can handle and what the average soldier/Marine can effectively use will factor in to "best". The .338 may be the best pure round for the job but it is lacking in logistical support and what I would have wanted to carry around. Now we essentially have a crew served sniper system if the .338 lapua is used. That will impose its own Darwinian limitations.

Hopefully our military procurement officials are looking at the whole picture and getting a weapon system into our guys hands that will help them when they need it.

 

[eastbank]

after engaging and killing many hundred,s of groundhogs from feet to many hundreds of yards ,a little over 800 yards was the longest confirmed kill. starting with a .22 lr as a kid to a 7mm mag with quite a few other calibers in between. going with guessing the range(missing a lot) to a ww-11 german split image rangefinder to a early lazer the size of a small box and lastly using a super lica. you would think all is well, but the wind, mirage,old eyes and old age trembles and groundhogs that will not sit still to be killed have upset the apple cart many times. my shots fired in anger were all very close and in a god allful hurry, with no time to range-adjust the sights-settle into sand bags-bipod.

 

[M118LR]

Old school range estimation: http://www.mildot.com/
No batteries required, but once you reach a certain age I'd recommend a pair of readers. LOL.
Modern improvements:


https://finnaccuracy.com/pages/msr-reticle-development-and-features

 

[CoalTrain49]

I’m kidding, but sort of serious when I say why in the heck would the military be looking at the 6.5 CM when years ago they evaluated the .260 and for reasons unknown to me didn’t pick it up. Are they buying a better round or buying the hype too?

They aren't really buying anything, you are. Do you want cost savings as a tax payer or ballistic perfection?

I have a feeling Lake City is already producing 300 WM by the truck load for the military. Nothing like a fixed rate truck load of ammo. If the military can't use it you can always sell it to Sportsman's Warehouse in time for elk season. Nobody is going elk hunting with a 260.

I scavenge .223 brass at my range. About half of it is Lake City ammo. People buy it at Cabela's and other sporting goods stores.