Is .300 Winchester Magnum the best choice for the U.S military's sniper rifles?

[JeffG]

It's been a proven favorite at Camp Perry for decades. I am sure they took factors like possibility of case separation, barrel life, rifle availability and ease of repairing and servicing, shooter fatigue during extended engagements, carrying weight of the rifle, etc. I guess it's far from experimental, with a proven track record.

 

[Garandimal]

Was a time, and not too long ago, when the #1 caliber choice of Tactical precision shooters - was the .260 REM.




GR

 

[Infidel]

Was a time, and not too long ago, when the #1 caliber choice of Tactical precision shooters - was the .260 REM.

It's still my favorite, but the Creedmoor has more glitter nowadays. Of course, I'm just a shooter, not very tactical or precise.

Most of the discussions about what the DoD "ought" to do and select fail to recognize the immense inertia involved in the system. Flushing the entire system of the old and refilling it with the new and different is not a simple thing. And to quote Jerry Pournelle, "Perfect is the enemy of good enough."

 

[M118LR]

Which is the better Sniper Round, .338 Lap or .300 Win? It's really irrelevant. Any rifle/cartridge combo that grants you a sizable distance advantage during counter sniper operations is desired. (nothing is worse than the inability to reach out and touch an opponent. JMHO.) The deadliest opponents a sniper has to face nowadays are loading an artillery piece, or talking on a communication device. Detection is by far the most deadly of opponents that Sniper's face on any Battlefield. Delivering a round on Target with multiple platforms is actually a small and continuously practiced part of Professional Sniping. Sending that round from an unknown, unsuspected, and undetectable location repeatedly. That's the Crux of the Biscuit!!! Like Patton said "The object of War is to make the other guy die for his country." On Target, On Target First, On Target First and Undetectable, those are the qualities that are not range dependent. One On Target Shot First, in a phone booth, still equates to only one winner. Rifle/Cartridge/Range are all just points of conversation. JMHO.

 

[dh1633pm]

So Mr Orcon, you know the meaning of "embrace the suck"? Well said.

 

[dh1633pm]

M118LR, if you were still doing the DOD's bidding, would you prefer the 300 for yourself? Meaning if you had choice, which you probably didn't, but if you did? Thanks.

 

[M118LR]

So Mr Orcon, you know the meaning of "embrace the suck"? Well said.

LMAO! Thanks dh1633pm.

 

[dh1633pm]

I meant that as both a comment and a question. Being deployed to points unknown can result in many a great story. I agree that the military members who use the equipment often don't have the choice of what equipment is chosen for them. Be it a sniper rifle or a $200 hammer. Be it 300 Win Mag or ....... Always debatable. Which leaves the question, should I get one? Is it s good caliber to have in the stable?

 

[Art Eatman]

dh1633pm, IMO the proper questions are, how far out do you want to shoot and at what? And, maybe, why?

 

[M118LR]

M118LR, if you were still doing the DOD's bidding, would you prefer the 300 for yourself? Meaning if you had choice, which you probably didn't, but if you did? Thanks.

All situations are dependent on the circumstances dh1633pm. Many folks have Come Home Sporting an M14NM against multiple opponents in the Mangroves that might be footnotes in history if they had been equipped with bolt action .50 BMG's. But if your opponent can't or doesn't recognize that you are "In Theater" until after you have placed 7 inches of Carbon Steel into thier breastplate all the other factors are irrelevant.

210 rounds of NATO .556 weigh as much as 100 rounds of NATO .762, wish I had a Six Pound Auto/Semi-Auto Precision Rifle that had the range and lethality of the .50 BMG Bolt Action.

The .300 Win Mag upgrades the time tested and light weight (relatively speaking) M40 from a 912 Meter firearm to the same paradigm 1500 Meter firearm. But I was dragging 36 lbs of .50BMG Mc Millan by the end of my final tour. If I had to spend a tour as a knuckle dragging Grunt (term loving reserved for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children), I'd rather count on my skills and carry a .300 Win Mag Remington 700 version of the M40 than 36lbs of Barrett .50 BMG. But that's a rather, should I be in a counter-sniper situation the .50 BMG Mc Millan would be my rifle/cartridge choice. Now if I'm heading to the One Way Range to practice on some 1K paper targets, I'm not bringing anything more than the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO with my Remington American or Milspec bolt action.

Honest Enough?

 

[M118LR]

I meant that as both a comment and a question. Being deployed to points unknown can result in many a great story. I agree that the military members who use the equipment often don't have the choice of what equipment is chosen for them. Be it a sniper rifle or a $200 hammer. Be it 300 Win Mag or ....... Always debatable. Which leaves the question, should I get one? Is it s good caliber to have in the stable?

There is a formula for how much throat erosion happens to the rifle due to the cartridge you choose to field.
A rifle/cartridge combo that has tens of thousands of usable rounds at 300 yards might need to be replaced while practicing 100 rounds a day within a month at 1000 yards. The 7.62 M118LR & a Bolt Action Remington should be able to group MOA @ 300 Yards for tens of thousands of rounds. Yet a .300 Win Mag in the same rifle will require a barrel change before 3 thousand rounds at 1500 Meters.

The question of is it worthwhile to have in the stable:

You can go a lifetime never meeting, more or less bracing, someone that can reach the potential of a 7.62 M118LR round. But if you are required to brace someone that has the ability to use the same rifle capable of the range potential of the .300 Win Mag with your 7.62 M118LR it may be the end of that lifetime. Skills make the rifleman, not the rifle. JMHO.

Only if you can, than it's required to have the .300 Win Mag in the stable.

But the .300 Win may still be an also-ran?

 

[Garandimal]

It's still my favorite, but the Creedmoor has more glitter nowadays. Of course, I'm just a shooter, not very tactical or precise.

Most of the discussions about what the DoD "ought" to do and select fail to recognize the immense inertia involved in the system. Flushing the entire system of the old and refilling it with the new and different is not a simple thing. And to quote Jerry Pournelle, "Perfect is the enemy of good enough."

With Big Green goin' room temperature and all, I figured it would fall off completely (they never really supported the cartridge as it is).

But recently, Hornady has adopted it as a big sister round to the 6.5 CM, and has offered the same kinds of shooter-friendly loading.

Like it better.




GR

 

[Orcon]

So Mr Orcon, you know the meaning of "embrace the suck"?

Not as much as others but I've had my share.

Fact of the matter is, there seems to be an idea (as noted previously) that there's a near magical wunder caliber/platform that does everything and has no downsides. That's a big Army wet dream but it's not reality.

Here's a condensed version of the last US Army industry request via thefirearmblog.com:

"the NGSAR, as stated in the notice, will “combined the firepower and range of a machine gun with the precision and ergonomics of a carbine” to achieve “overmatch” by “suppressing all threats to a range of 1200 meters”, all in a package that is supposed to weigh 12 pounds or less (unloaded), with both optic and “always on” suppressor. At the same time, the NGSAR must fire lightweight ammunition that is 20-50% lighter than comparable conventional ammunition of the same caliber. In other documents included in the solicitation’s amendments, it is revealed that although the NGSAR is primarily intended to replace the M249, it remains to be seen where it will be able to fulfill other roles like DMR, MMG, and carbine."
​

Meanwhile, in real life, we use the tools available to us to their maximum effect.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Here's a condensed version of the last US Army industry request via thefirearmblog.com:

"the NGSAR, as stated in the notice, will “combined the firepower and range of a machine gun with the precision and ergonomics of a carbine” to achieve “overmatch” by “suppressing all threats to a range of 1200 meters”, all in a package that is supposed to weigh 12 pounds or less (unloaded), with both optic and “always on” suppressor. At the same time, the NGSAR must fire lightweight ammunition that is 20-50% lighter than comparable conventional ammunition of the same caliber. In other documents included in the solicitation’s amendments, it is revealed that although the NGSAR is primarily intended to replace the M249, it remains to be seen where it will be able to fulfill other roles like DMR, MMG, and carbine."

I'l have what they're having.

 

[joneb]

I know the Army's M2010 and now the Marine's Mk 13 Mod 7 sniper rifles are chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62×67mm), and I know it was a favorite of Chris Kyle, but is it a better cartridge for long-range sniping than the .338 Lapua Magnum ?

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne.../marine-snipers-are-getting-new-mk-13-rifles/

The 30 Nosler might be worth a look. simular to the .300 Daktota I think

 

[someguy2800]

Not as much as others but I've had my share.

Fact of the matter is, there seems to be an idea (as noted previously) that there's a near magical wunder caliber/platform that does everything and has no downsides. That's a big Army wet dream but it's not reality.

Here's a condensed version of the last US Army industry request via thefirearmblog.com:

"the NGSAR, as stated in the notice, will “combined the firepower and range of a machine gun with the precision and ergonomics of a carbine” to achieve “overmatch” by “suppressing all threats to a range of 1200 meters”, all in a package that is supposed to weigh 12 pounds or less (unloaded), with both optic and “always on” suppressor. At the same time, the NGSAR must fire lightweight ammunition that is 20-50% lighter than comparable conventional ammunition of the same caliber. In other documents included in the solicitation’s amendments, it is revealed that although the NGSAR is primarily intended to replace the M249, it remains to be seen where it will be able to fulfill other roles like DMR, MMG, and carbine."
​

Meanwhile, in real life, we use the tools available to us to their maximum effect.

10,000 units of magic please

 

[eastbank]

the 300 wm is not far behind the 338L and leaps and bounds above the 308W and all are behind the 50 cal.

 

[dh1633pm]

The problem I see is that are lots of choices. One needs to consider what is in use and widely available. I think the 300 Win Mag was chosen because the old 700 based long actions could be converted from 308 as the need arose. I have a friend at Remington who worked on their contract with the Army for rifles. I am not a sniper, never will be, never been in combat, however I served in a war zone doing offensive operations. None of this make me an expert at anything. Just thinking out loud.

 

[C0untZer0]

It seems like some people are insinuating that the .338 as the military's standard sniper rifle is some kind of pie-in-the-sky fantasy scenario and the .300 Win.Mag. is practical and the DOD is being practical.

The .338 Lapua Magnum was created to be a long-range sniping round, right from the start. The Marine Corps contacted Jerry Haskins who owned RAI, in 1982 and asked him specifically to develop - from scratch, a long range sniper weapon system. One of the early versions was chambered in .300 Win. Mag but Haskins believed (and was correct, IMO) that a better sniper round could be invented rather than choosing from existing cartridges of the time.

In 1986 the .338/416 cartridge, with a Lapua bullet and case, won the 1000 yard Navy Rifle competition in Quantanico, Virginia.

CPO Chris Kyle recorded a 1,920 m (2,100 yd) kill in Sadr City in 2008 - with his McMillan Tac-338, one of the longest confirmed kills ever and the 4th longest confirmed kill by a United States serviceman. The record for the longest confirmed sniper kill was set by the .338 Lapua Magnum used by British Corporal Craig Harrison with a confirmed kill at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) in 2009, in Afghanistan with his Accuracy International L115A3 and that record stood until last year when it was beaten by a Canadian sniper using a McMillan Tac-50.

The .338 is not some fanciful impractical cartridge. It is a military cartridge, developed for the military from inception as a sniper cartridge. It is a thoroughly field tested, proven in combat, tried-and-true sniper round.

I don't know what was behind the choice of .300 Win. Mag. but it doesn't seem to be a better choice than the .338 Lapua, just from a proven performance stand point.

 

[z7]

I don't know what was behind the choice of .300 Win. Mag. but it doesn't seem to be a better choice than the .338 Lapua, just from a proven performance stand point.

The only downside for a 338 is weight, weight of ammo and weight of the system,

It is battle proven, widely used and very effective, but it weighs more and recoils more

 

[CoalTrain49]

The only downside for a 338 is weight, weight of ammo and weight of the system,

It is battle proven, widely used and very effective, but it weighs more and recoils more

The exact same reason we have the 5.56 x 45. It has a lot of short comings but for the average troop it works just fine. I shoot it exclusively and I can tell you it's a fine cartridge.

The military doesn't have an unlimited budget for weapons systems. It's quite possible that they want one LRP rifle, not two, for supply and maintenance reasons. If you've ever been in the military you know how that works. I've seen aircraft being used that were 25 years old. Believe it or not there were still engine parts in inventory to repair those aircraft.

In the military they don't ask you what rifle you want to use. They just give you one and train you to use it. Saves the tax payer a lot of money and makes training and support a lot easier for the military. Anytime a weapons system becomes standard in the military costs go way down. Looks like the 300 WM is now the military's LRP rifle cartridge.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don't know what was behind the choice of .300 Win. Mag. but it doesn't seem to be a better choice than the .338 Lapua, just from a proven performance stand point.

I think it was decided about 7 years ago what the std cartridge was going to be.

ATK has announced a five-year, fixed-price, indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contract with the U.S. Army for the production of Mk248 Mod 0, 190-grain and Mk248 Mod 1, 220-grain .300 Winchester Magnum (Win Mag) rifle ammunition.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/army-likes-the-300-win-mag-places-20-million-ammo-order/

The 300 WM is not only a std cartridge for the military it's also popular with civilians. That has a lot to do with military ammo costs. It looks to me like 338 L is running about $2/rd more than 300 WM.

How many people do you know that shoot a 338 Lapua?

 

[mcb]

And yet SOCOM is thinking about switching to 300 Norma Mag and 338 Norma Mag for some reason.

The article is a little dated:

http://www.recoilweb.com/socom-on-the-hunt-for-new-advanced-sniper-rifle-131902.html

Seems 300 NM is a small step up from 300 WM but 338 NM seems to be a small step down from 338 LM.

And a switch barrel system just seems like a compromise with no real benefit in the field compared to caliber specific designs.

 

[eastbank]

the long (real long) sniper kills involve more than a little luck or no luck at all for the target. we hear all about the made shots, but I would like to hear about the missed shots. and I think some are made at a group of targets and the one in the middle got hit. this not to take any thing away from the snipers, I was a grunt my self in Vietnam and my long shoots were some time in feet not miles.

 

[spartandemon]

And yet SOCOM is thinking about switching to 300 Norma Mag and 338 Norma Mag for some reason.

The military has been thinking of things since 1775.
I wouldn’t read to much into the could be’s. New cardridge adoptions ideas always come and go, even if it gets through r&d there are still plenty people that need to give approval in where the likelihood, is small. Even in SOC, when talking about a complete standardization.