Is it legal for an estate sale auction house to sell guns?

[castile]

I live in Arkansas but this could also be a federal thing. There is a local auction house that does estate sales. they sell extates that either people are just wanting to sell off their things, or someone has passed on and the family does not want to do it them self's. They sell a lot of modern firearms. From ARs to pistols and others that would come under ATF rules. They don't have an FFL and I have bought a couple from them, they sell them as a FTF sale. Which in my state is legal. But since they are a business is that OK. Thanks

 

[Jim Watson]

I recently went to a "going to the old folks home" sale and bought powder, bullets, and books. The guns were handled separately, I think by a FFL.
General property auctions with guns have them papered by a cooperating FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

I live in Arkansas but this could also be a federal thing. There is a local auction house that does estate sales. they sell extates that either people are just wanting to sell off their things, or someone has passed on and the family does not want to do it them self's. They sell a lot of modern firearms. From ARs to pistols and others that would come under ATF rules. They don't have an FFL and I have bought a couple from them, they sell them as a FTF sale. Which in my state is legal. But since they are a business is that OK. Thanks

Does an auctioneer who is involved in firearms sales need a dealer’s license?

Does an auctioneer who is involved in firearms sales need a dealer’s license?
Generally speaking, there are two types of auctions: estate-type auctions and consignment auctions.

In estate-type auctions, the articles to be auctioned (including firearms) are being sold by the executor of the estate of an individual. The firearms belong to and are possessed by the executor. The firearms are controlled by the estate, and the sales of firearms are being made by the estate. The auctioneer is acting as an agent of the executor and assisting the executor in finding buyers for the firearms. In these cases, the auctioneer does not meet the definition of engaging in business as a dealer in firearms and would not need a license. An auctioneer who does have a license may perform this function away from their licensed premises.

In consignment-type auctions, an auctioneer often takes possession of firearms in advance of the auction. These firearms are generally inventoried, evaluated, and tagged for identification. The firearms belong to individuals who have entered into a consignment agreement with the auctioneer giving that auctioneer authority to sell the firearms. The auctioneer therefore has possession and control of the firearms. Under these circumstances, an auctioneer would generally need a license. If you are not sure if a license is needed in a particular consignment auction situation, contact your local ATF office.

 

[Mosin77]

Generally speaking if the estate sale is being handled by a non dealer auctioneer, no FFL necessary. Which is why estate sale firearms often go for crazy stupid money, because the locals are excited to have a selection of guns to bid on, with no obligation to go through the 4473 rigamarole.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I am not a lawyer and I think it varies by state.

However, I have seen it done so long as the person or executer is there. The auction house was getting the price but, in effect, the seller or executor is "doing" the FTF transaction.

Again, NOT a lawyer nor SME on these things.

 

[jmr40]

I've been to a few estate sales. If the family is running the sale it usually works just like a FTF transaction. Pay your money and take the gun. But most of them locally are done by people who run the sales as a business. In that case you pay for the gun at the estate sale. The gun is then delivered to a local gun shop who handles the transfer. For an additional fee.

 

[dogtown tom]

I am not a lawyer and I think it varies by state.

No, it doesn't.
Federal law applies to everyone.

 

[PapaG]

In Illinois it is but the sales have to be processed through a dealer with the attendant background check and three day wait. Not like the good old days when you could "win" that trapdoor Springfield or fifty bucks and take it home.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

No, it doesn't.
Federal law applies to everyone.

True, however, some states no longer allow for FTF sales of some items. So, the states can have stricter laws than the fed.

 

[ManlyMatt]

I live in Arkansas but this could also be a federal thing. There is a local auction house that does estate sales. they sell extates that either people are just wanting to sell off their things, or someone has passed on and the family does not want to do it them self's. They sell a lot of modern firearms. From ARs to pistols and others that would come under ATF rules. They don't have an FFL and I have bought a couple from them, they sell them as a FTF sale. Which in my state is legal. But since they are a business is that OK. Thanks

A friend here (Texas) who does estate sales tells me that the way they handle guns in estates is that they do not take possession of the guns themselves. They go to the seller's location, take pictures, write up descriptions, etc. to put on their site's listings, and after the auctions end, on the day when they're to be picked up, the actual seller comes to their location to sell them face-to-face to the buyer as arranged in the auction.

 

[Howland937]

I wouldn't complain - nice to buy guns without a paper trail.

I'd rather have the paper trail than pay the exorbitant auction prices like folks around here pay.

Not to derail this thread, but perhaps to piggy-back...and maybe @Old Dog can shed light?

Auctions with guns around here draw Amish folk out of the woodwork. They pay insane prices to avoid the dreaded "paperwork". They also typically never have a photo ID of any variety. A recent (very large) gun auction drew people from at least 2 other states and quite a few were Amish. I'd always been under the impression that any FTF sales that involved firearms crossing state lines were prohibited, everywhere. (Resident to non resident or vice-versa)

At least that's what an ATF agent told me several years back.

 

[Old Dog]

Not to derail this thread, but perhaps to piggy-back...and maybe @Old Dog can shed light?

Can't speak to other states' current laws, but since we here have had mandatory background checks foisted on us for all firearms transactions, our auction houses now go through local FFLs. The largest auction house in my area now sends all guns for estate sales over to a local gun shop, which charges transfer fees, processes the 4473s and enforces our now mandatory 10 business day waiting period. Gone are the days in my state where you bid on a gun, went backstage, laid down your cash and walked away with the gun.

 

[Appalachiannative]

In NC I sure hope this is legal because I've been to multiple estate sales selling firearms here. They have all listed that a "background check" is required. These have all been sales by the same company so I'm guessing that they mean a 4473 and there must be an FFL involved with the company

 

[HighRoadRover]

Wise, and cheap at the cost, to have the actually seller complete the transaction to the actual buyer through a FFL. But its a good question. I suspect a lot of guns -- pistols, rifles, shotguns, curios and relics, etc. -- turn up in estate sales all the time.

By the way, ATF used to say on their website that you can sell a lot of guns at one time, and not be considered a "business" that needs its own FFL if you are selling an inherited collection. But going through a FFL (so you get the "background check" and the paper trail) seems like a good idea!