Is Open Carry Practical

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Please, Venkman (I'll call you Venkman since you seem to want to stick to "surnames"), please, tell me this is not the best you can do. If this is your idea of anecdotal evidence of the extra danger of open carry, I am going to have to

You can do whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that those who open carry are subject to LE Harassment for exercising their legal rights, and can also become targets because of the visibility of them having a gun. Crooks shoot cops, they'll shoot you too.


So some guy comes in and robs the bank. On the way out, he "shoots the place up". I wonder how many rounds he shot? One round ricochets off the floor, then the ceiling, fragments, and causes a minor injury in one person. That's it!?! Yeah, that's bad, but it hardly rises to the level of an e-ville man targeting those people carrying weapons. If the best he could do is shoot the floor, he probably would have wet himself and fainted if he saw a real man carrying a gun!

If I was a crook, the first person I'd target is anyone with a weapon. IF you were in that bank, that would be you while your back was away from me. Again, as another poster has showed, people who OC get assaulted/mugged. It is the same with police officers.

And like WayneConrad says, it really isn't about tactical. It is about rights. If you really think that the scenario you have described is a good reason not to open carry, then you might want to seriously think about not carrying anything at all except a cell phone. Who knows what the bad guy might do to you if he discovers you were hiding a gun from him? In fact, you might even want to skip the phone! You would surely be targeted for termination if he thought you had called his crime in to the ever vigilant police in your area!

This is called a strawman. You are more than welcome to refute arguments I never made and use non-sequitrs as you so please, but don't expect me to react to you talking to a mirror.

 

[Old Dog]

JohnKSa, thank you for adding some more valuable perspective to this thread.

'Pears, many of us are simply trying to state that while we believe open carry has valuable application in many areas, and should be legal everywhere ...

... it's simply not practical, nor practicable, in most areas. Nor does open carry seem to further the agenda of the RKBA movement, as much as the open carry adherents desire to believe ...

Let's all try and consider the reality of the situation.

 

[BlackBearME]

Originally Posted by

OK. So, in the first sentence you say that concaled carry alone is insufficient to act as a deterrent. Later, however, you say that concealed carry, with or without open carry, will make the bad guys reduce their assaults. You say that the deterrent effect of CC is contingent upon potential bad guys realizing that people could be armed. Without OC, however, how are people going to realize this? Just seems contradictory to me.

How do criminals know about CC? Perhaps because when CC laws are passed they are trumpeted on the front page of newspapers and decried on the evening news?

Perhaps because criminals keep abreast of developments that could render them dead?

Let's not insult each others' intelligence here

Alright, good point. Then again, I don't envision hardened criminals sitting down to read the paper every morning. (I don't know, I'm not a hardened criminal)
But even if they do know that CC is legal, I doubt that it enters their head all the time. I think (and this is just my opinion) that seeing (even semi-frequently) a gun on a random citizen's hip would keep that thought fresh in their mind - that their may be others there that are armed.

Take for example that story related above, regarding the robber in the bank. No one had a gun, and yet he still fired. But think about this from the criminals' perspective. He walks in, looks around, sees no one armed, thinks "OK, easy target." Of course, we're talking CA here so the likelihood of there being a CC-er in the bank is less than other places, but still existent. I doubt it enters his mind much, though. Now consider the same scenario, but he sees someone in line with a gun on his hip. He could very well be thinking "Alright, that guy might try to take me out - I should take him out first." The analysis is more complex, of course - now he has to weigh what he thought was an easy score against the complexity of needing to kill someone over a couple hundred dollars, and have a much larger manhunt mounted for him. In addition, seeing the gun might make him think "OK, there's one guy here armed - there could be more."
But yes, it is a risk, and one that I - and many others - take on occasion. Some things are worth risking, and our rights are one of them. I personally am not trying to push others to OC, and I'm not saying that if you don't OC you don't care about 2A rights. I hope some people will understand the thought process, though, and think about it.

There's another example here:

Good luck in convincing 'soccer mom' that a gun is ok to own, carry, use. I doubt you will suceed, no matter how right you claim to be.

But you want to, right? I certainly do. And I don't know of a single way of doing that other than just going ahead and OC-ing. I may not make a difference. She might just see me with a gun and freak out. But what if she sees another a month later? And two months later yet another? There is going to come a point where it fails to excite her, because she will begin to see that a) it happens quite a bit, and b) for all of that, they're not going on shooting rampages. There are of course notable exceptions ....Brady comes to mind. But for most people, this is standard desensitization. This is the only way we will get society to accept people carrying their guns as they're within their rights to do - by actually doing it. Unless someone can propose a better way - then I'm open to ideas.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

If I was a crook, the first person I'd target is anyone with a weapon. IF you were in that bank, that would be you while your back was away from me. Again, as another poster has showed, people who OC get assaulted/mugged. It is the same with police officers.

Sorry Venkman, you have displayed a lot of bombast and a lot of ire, but still no real example of open carry people being shot up by robbers. Sure there are isolated occurrences of cops and armored cars being robbed, shot up, or attacked. But the frequency at which that occurs is minute compared to the rest of daily life. It is akin to worrying about being hit by lightning.

I am not asking you or anyone else to open carry. It is not for everyone. All I am asking is for a little rationality in your discussion. I haven't seen that. All you have been able to post is a lame example of a crook who shot the floor as your example, and then your own "what I would do if I robbed a bank" stuff. Do some people get harassed? Sure. Does that mean we should stop and meekly submit to the soccer moms? Never. But I do not see the point in continuing to discuss this with you. Feel free to respond so you may have the last word.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

Gun shops are robbed. Armored cars are robbed. I suppose if there were a lot of cash at police stations they would be robbed too. As far as the IQ of the criminals who target armed persons, you may be right. But as far as I can see it's a small comfort to know that the person who attacked you is an idiot.

I know this. I knew it before I posted about it. I noted it as a rare occurrence. But as I wrote to the distinguished Dr. Venkman, the reality of this is about as high as the reality of being hit by lightning compared to what goes on in regular life.

I OC and I CC. I do not ask anyone else to OC or expect them to do so because I think they should. I do ask for a little more respect for my choice and the choice of many others. But there are too many people here and in the world, where if they do not get people to agree with them and validate their beliefs, then those people are wrong and must be harshly corrected.

There is a chance that I could be shot first. There is also a chance that I could be hit by an 18 wheeler on the highway today too. That chance is actually much higher. That doesn't mean I will not drive my truck today. Think about that just a little next time you turn the key in your car.

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

I still say some of these arguments are just alternate verses for a song by the brady bunch.

 

[tegemu]

IMHO open carry is an invitation to BG's to shoot me first. Often when they are committing a holdup, they take out the armed police or security guards first. They don't want to be shot either.

 

[WayneConrad]

Open carry is not a magic talisman that will keep bad guys away in every instance. There is at least one documented instance of a gun snatch from a non-cop who was open carrying, for instance. There are no get out of trouble free cards.

All the same, one documented instance does not mean that the openly carried sidearm is mind control device that always causes bad guys to "shoot you first." Sometimes? Maybe. You take your chances when you go out into the world.

Some of these arguments are getting silly.

 

[Old Dog]

As Wayne notes, we're taking some of these arguments beyond silly.

How 'bout all the folks around here who authoritatively state that simply wearing a photographer's/safari vest "screams gun" and just advertises "shoot me first?" Guess we'll never see consensus around here.

As I noted in my post above, I really don't think open carry necessarily furthers our agenda in the RKBA movement. Should be legal? Yes (soccer moms be da**ed). Practical? That's just gonna be situational, but I'm saying the everywhere, everyday answer is still no.

 

[Dahwg]

I open carry- mostly because I'm still waiting on my CCW but I admit there are times when I'd rather not. It's completely situational. As has been stated earlier, from a tactical point of view OC makes it easier to draw, but at what cost? You lose the advantage of surprise. Here's where each individual must do a cost-benefit analysis for themselves.

Does it further our RKBA? Well if I'm keeping and bearing it does. Who cares what others think? Personally, I want the choice to do either.

Concerning being the first target/Being a deterrent argument- I think both points are over-stated. A good close fitting OC holster such as the Blackhawk CQC or Galco Matrix makes the gun much less obvious- I'd say about 75% of the people with whom I come in contact when I OC don't even notice it, therefore nullifying the argument altogether. FWIW I say OC, CC doesn't matter- as long as you do carry. It's a use it or lose it proposition.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'd say about 75% of the people with whom I come in contact when I OC don't even notice it, therefore nullifying the argument altogether.

Absolutely false conclusion. All it takes is for ONE of the people in the other 25% who DOES notice to have evil intentions and the means to carry them out.

Is that LIKELY? Nope, I'm not claiming that at all. But it is MORE likely than a person targeting a CCW'er because he has a gun.

But as I wrote to the distinguished Dr. Venkman, the reality of this is about as high as the reality of being hit by lightning compared to what goes on in regular life.

But it does happen, and it happens regularly. Winning the lottery is a long shot too, but someone wins a lottery somewhere in the nation every week.

If we take the "it's rare so it's not an issue" approach then none of us would be carrying guns for self-defense purposes.

There is a chance that I could be shot first. There is also a chance that I could be hit by an 18 wheeler on the highway today too. That chance is actually much higher. That doesn't mean I will not drive my truck today. Think about that just a little next time you turn the key in your car.

You're kidding, right?

This isn't about the fact that bad things sometimes happen to people, it's about how to MINIMIZE the chances of having bad things happen.

If you conceal a gun you MINIMIZE the chances that someone will try to steal it compared to leaving it in the open.
If you conceal a gun you MINIMIZE the chances that someone will target you because your armed vs wearing it in the open.

No one's saying that being targeted or having your gun grabbed is COMMON or LIKELY, only that it's MORE likely if your gun is visible than if it's not.

But there are too many people here and in the world, where if they do not get people to agree with them and validate their beliefs, then those people are wrong and must be harshly corrected.

Yes, I've seen that happen... You mean like in this post immediately following yours?

I still say some of these arguments are just alternate verses for a song by the brady bunch.

Yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you completely is a gun grabber, an anti-patriot and a sheeple... This is my biggest heartburn with this topic. If FULL agreement can't be reached on ALL counts then the OC'ers start making nasty accusations.

BlackBearME,

Your entire post is riddled with speculation and full of attempts to think like a criminal down to a detail level that borders on the ridiculous. I don't see any point in trying to refute your guesses about what criminals are thinking--I believe it's sufficient to merely point out that all you're doing is guessing.

I'm glad that your confidence in your ability to predict how criminals will think and act in every given situation assures you of the tacticality and practicality of your choices but I have to say that it doesn't do the same for me.

And, let me close my post by repeating this.

I think OC should be legal everywhere. That doesn't mean I would take advantage of it except in unusual circumstances, and it definitely doesn't mean I believe it's the best option in terms of practicality or tacticality, but I DO think it should be legal.

Can OC be a positive influence for gun rights? Yes, in some cases.
Can it be a negative influence for gun rights? Yes, that's also a possibility.
Can it be done with impunity? Surely, in some cases.
Does it render the OC'er immune from crime? No.
Is it a better tactical option than CC? Perhaps sometimes but not usually.
Is it an EASIER option than CC? Probably nearly always.
Can it target the OC'er for crime--it has at least once.
Can it target the OC'er for LE harassment or arrest even where legal? Sure can.

 

[BlackBearME]

BlackBearME,

Your entire post is riddled with speculation and full of attempts to think like a criminal down to a detail level that borders on the ridiculous.

Perhaps. No more ridiculous than the numerous posters above who said "If a criminal walks in and sees someone OCing that'll be their first target." How is this any different than what I said? I just took it farther and "got inside" the criminal's head.

I don't see any point in trying to refute your guesses about what criminals are thinking.

I don't either - there's no point. We could go back and forth ad nauseum and never be right. They're just guesses. I'm kind of curious why you would point mine out when, as I said above, plenty of other people have stated "An OCer would be the first target." Is this not also making a guess about what criminals are thinking? Why is it that you specifically refute my scenario as guesswork, when it's no more so than anyone else's claim to anything in this thread.

I believe it's sufficient to merely point out that all you're doing is guessing.

Absolutely. That was the point. I never said I wasn't guessing, and in fact I think I took pains to point out it was just speculation. That was the entire point of my post - this entire discussion is speculation. Of course there are anecdotes that indicate one way or the other. The only way to determine this argument is if someone can supply hard empirical evidence which shows, over the whole country (or any given area) the deterrent effect vs. the risk factor. This is impossible, of course, so everything else is just smoke blowing out of our nether regions.

 

[PurplePeopleEater]

I have been hassled by the Police on one occasion for OCing, and their basic view of OC was, even though they knew it was legal (albeit rare in the People's Republic of Boulder), that it was "obnoxious", "aggravating", and that I should not carry at all until I got my ccw because, while THEY were police officers and THEY had all sorts of "specialized training" and, when THEY were off-duty, even THEY didn't carry openly (if at all).

I said, "That's all well and good. But you guys aren't me, and I get to make my own decisions."

I deliberately tore up my ccw app after I got home.

Now its open carry or not at all, and I like to walk everywhere. In the park, to the mall, grocery store, the movies, across the street from universities and elementary schools, you name it, I've openly carried a gun there. No flashing blue lights, no helicopters, no felony stops. Just a couple contacts with curious (and the aforementioned unpleasant) police officers, and a few stares now and then.

99.9 percent of the time its a complete and total non-issue. The biggest lesson I have learned is that most people are blissfully unaware of the people around them.

Many of you must have pretty big egos to think that other people care that much about what you do, let alone what you might be wearing on your hip.

 

[moooose102]

in michigan, open carry is not an option. but if it were, there would be times i would. but it would be very seldom in town. i dont live in the boonies (like i would want) but more towards a country setting. here, it wouldn't bother me at all to open carry. i don't think there would be to many people offended, but if there were, tough. i do not worry much about being "politically correct". unfortunatly, there are bad things about open carry. 1) it really excites some folks, 2) it draws unnecessary negative attention for the anti-gun nuts to jump all over, 3) if in the wrong place at the wrong time, and under the wrong circumstances, you could find yourself confronting many punks who want your weapon, desperatly, and it could get very ugly very fast. where if it was ccw, there wouldn't be an issue. i suppose there are many good and bad scenario's that could be gone through, but it is a moot point anyway, at least for me. so i just carry ccw, and forget it. kind of like ron popeil says, just set it (my gun in it's holster) and forget it.

 

[Pushrod]

For all you OC neysayers, I have to disagree. I live in Maryland, have CC non-resident permits from two other states and CC when I am in states that recognize my permits.
I own a home in West Virginia that I am at about a quarter of the year. Unfortunately, West Virginia doesn't recognize non-resident CC permits or issue one, but they do allow OC. So I am forced to Open Carry whenever I am in West Virginia and am thankful for at least that.
I have to admit that I am self-conscious when I am OCing, but so far no problems.
I do agree with many people here that the more people see it, the less uncomfortable they will be with it.
Now would I continue OCing if I was able to CC out there? I think most of the time I would CC, but on those days where I am dressed down and concealing a firearm isn't practical I would definetly OC.

 

[poor_richard]

in michigan, open carry is not an option.

Totally, completely incorrect. OC is legal in Michigan with state preemption.

…
IMHO, there are bad things about open carry. 1) it really excites some folks, 2) it draws unnecessary negative attention for the anti-gun nuts to jump all over, 3) if in the wrong place at the wrong time, and under the wrong circumstances, you could find yourself confronting many punks who want your weapon, desperatly, and it could get very ugly very fast. where if it was ccw, there wouldn't be an issue.

…

There, fixed it for you.

 

[grizz5675]

I would avoid open carry if possible , it leads to fear of the unknown,that is to say people wonder why you have a gun in the first place anyway my question to anyone is why would you need to open carry ?If your ccw ;you know where your gun is and they dont which is benaficial to you.

 

[RangerHAAF]

I'm 100% for open carry here in Georgia. One of our representatives is working to get it written as the law of the state. There won't be much of a problem getting it passed; as I understand the law now, it is legal but not encouraged.

I love the way Virginia's law embraces it and the antis here don't have the leverage to oppose it.

 

[WayneConrad]

Oh, I can't help myself...

I would avoid speaking my mind if possible. It might make someone mad if they disagree. I might get hurt. Worse, it might make the government mad and they might hassle me. It's safer to keep my opinion to myself.

I would keep my cross or star of David hidden, or not wear my head scarf. It might make someone mad or scared and they might pass a law to restrict my religious rights. Someone might even hurt me. It's better to keep my religion to myself.

I would not associate with my friends in public. It would scare people if they saw us together in a group. They might call us a "gang" and call the cops, who would come and hassle us. I might get hurt.

I would avoid printing things that people do not like. People would be mad, and the government would hassle me. I might get hurt.

 

[beretta92d]

though i don't completely OC fully here in N.H.(where it's legal without permit) i basicaly partial CC..i use a OWB belt holster from galco(matrix line) and when i wear my jacket,it covers 3/4 of my gun and only part exposed is shown in pic below..(i've read somewhere that if any part of gun is exposed,then it's considered OC)


i prefer OC more then CC mainly due to comfort and easier access then having to sweep aside my jacket and moving t-shirt up to expose the guns grip.

 

[MarcusWendt]

As I read this discussion and some of the things people have had to endure, it reminds me of another time in our nation's history.

There was a time not long ago in this country where you weren't allowed to go to a certain school because you might offend someone.

There was a time that you couldn't date whoever you wanted because it might offend someone. Sure, it was LEGAL, but who'd take the risk? You'd be beaten and the police would sure as hell be on your rear end.

You couldn't go anywhere you wanted to even though you had a legal right to do so. Sure, it was legal, but it just wasn't accepted and it would be frowned upon. Police might ask you to go elsewhere or move on.

While we have many many rights in this country of ours, we also have a large number of people who don't want us to have certain rights because we think different or look different than them. We are all equal under the law, but some people would prefer we be equal, but do it somewhere else. Sadly many in LE still believe it's their job to use their color of authority to "discourage" one group from making another group "uncomfortable".

Again in America, we have signs that tell one group of people to "stay away, keep out". Sure, you're free and American, but you just aren't welcome in here. Still, if you are willing to surrender your rights and do as we tell you we'll let you in.

The comparison I'm making is similar, but one is obviously more serious as it affected a much large group of people in a more violent way, and I do not intend to do that struggle a disservice, I'm just pointing out that they share some of the same situations and that both situations were born or ignorance, hate, irrational fear, and bigotry.

Rights are RIGHTS!!!! SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!! All adult Americans should feel free to exercise their rights without fear of persecution, or retribution.

 

[poor_richard]

As I read this discussion and some of the things people have had to endure, it reminds me of another time in our nation's history.

There was a time not long ago in this country where you weren't allowed to go to a certain school because you might offend someone.

There was a time that you couldn't date whoever you wanted because it might offend someone. Sure, it was LEGAL, but who'd take the risk? You'd be beaten and the police would sure as hell be on your rear end.

You couldn't go anywhere you wanted to even though you had a legal right to do so. Sure, it was legal, but it just wasn't accepted and it would be frowned upon. Police might ask you to go elsewhere or move on.

While we have many many rights in this country of ours, we also have a large number of people who don't want us to have certain rights because we think different or look different than them. We are all equal under the law, but some people would prefer we be equal, but do it somewhere else. Sadly many in LE still believe it's their job to use their color of authority to "discourage" one group from making another group "uncomfortable".

Again in America, we have signs that tell one group of people to "stay away, keep out". Sure, you're free and American, but you just aren't welcome in here. Still, if you are willing to surrender your rights and do as we tell you we'll let you in.

The comparison I'm making is similar, but one is obviously more serious as it affected a much large group of people in a more violent way, and I do not intend to do that struggle a disservice, I'm just pointing out that they share some of the same situations and that both situations were born or ignorance, hate, irrational fear, and bigotry.

Rights are RIGHTS!!!! SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!! All adult Americans should feel free to exercise their rights without fear of persecution, or retribution.

Sadly, some people just don't seem to want to understand this concept. There really isn't much difference.

 

[WayneConrad]

There really isn't much difference.

Pretty much. There is one difference, though. That difference being, that in the civil rights battles of old, people got killed.

All I risk is being told to leave the store, or having a police officer asking me why I'm carrying, or--worst case--having charges brought against me and running up a large legal bill. The odds of being killed over open carry are very, very low.

I'm a baby in a nursery, utterly protected, risking nothing, compared to those who have risked everything in civil rights struggles of old.

 

[JohnKSa]

Yup, this is always how it ends up--and how it will always end up. Because this isn't about logic to some people, it's about who is the better American.

These discussions always start out weighing the relative practical/tactical merits of OC vs CC but when the logic starts to favor CC over OC (as it must in any environment where OC is not ubiquitous) then the OC'ers abruptly gaze off toward the horizon and begin to describe that fair city we will all inhabit, that great reward we will all enjoy when we drive the paynim from the holy land--oh! the travails through which we will persevere, though they be light afflictions compared to the persecutions which were of old...

Ok, guys, you're right. You guys are better Americans than people who don't OC. Stronger patriots than those who conceal their carry weapons. More passionate advocates of freedom than those who wear a cover garment. Better citizens than those who choose a tactical advantage over showing their cards.

After all, carrying a gun isn't about self-defense, it's only about rights!
It's not about personal safety, it's purely about freedom!
It's not about defending your family, it's all about the second amendment!
It's not about resisting crime, it's solely about shoring up the constitution!

I'm a baby in a nursery, utterly protected, risking nothing, compared to those who have risked everything in civil rights struggles of old.

Man, that brings a tear to my eye. You guys are just SWELL! Keep up the good work--I know it's tough but you are all up to the challenge. Maybe one day I'll be worthy to join you in the great, the worthy, the only true struggle for freedom...

Until then, I'll keep defending the second amendment in my community as a firearm safety instructor, supporting and holding office in local gun clubs, participating in local gun rights efforts, contributing to my state firearm association, writing to my legislators, voting responsibly, supporting national gun rights organizations, and other puerile endeavors such as that. Sadly, that all comes to naught because my gun will be concealed the whole time.

But someday...someday maybe I'll be like you guys...

 

[cowssurf]

Unless you're in the woods, a cop, a security guard, or and armored vehicle driver, open carry is ridiculous. It makes us gun owners look like morons. It makes us look like "those gun nuts" that gun grabbers point to to prove their arguments. The general public thinks we look like a bunch of Wild Bill Hickocks and are scared to see guns openly carried. I truly think it's a bad idea to open carry in a modern society. For those who open carry and can't step outside themselves and see how they are percieved, this is how it's percieved: People see you as looking to get in a gun fight (I know you're not, but that's what they see), and as a backwoods redneck who doesn't have the intelligence and restraint to responsibly be allowed to carry a firearm. Then they say to themselves, we need to make a law banning that. Don't open carry, it hurts our cause.