It's certainly what I'm going for.
It's this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01313622M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Is the 10mm making a resurgence
- Thread starter 262madmike
- Start date
- Status
MachIVshooter
Member
They're neat. We have a .45 at the shop that might get post sampled if we can get ahead enough that we don't need to move it.
For me, though, I'll probably end up building one that uses either Tanfo or G20 mags, since I have both a G20 and a Witness Limited. I like the 10 mag upper I did, but that's not really a PCC either, well into intermediate rifle cartridge territory for power.
Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
- Messages
- 13,275
The Vector uses G20 mags. You are aware of that, right?
george29
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,670
Not sure a 10mm is big enough to do the job against manbearpig.
Ohen Cepel
Member
I think it is making a comeback as more people tend to be auto guys (younger generation I think) rather than revolver people. So, when they want a viable hunting round (within limits) they go to the 10mm since they prefer autos rather than the 357, 41, or 44.
MachIVshooter
Member
Yes. They're neat, particularly from a mechanical engineering standpoint, but a bit heavy and more than a little odd looking. Not really my flavor.
MachIVshooter
Member
I don't think hunting or even critter defense has much to do with it. The sunset of the AWB likely plays a role, though, since 10mm gives you more rounds with more power in a .45 chassis. And another factor would be the boutique ammo companies that started making real 10mm ammo over the last decade. Even the original Norma loads are a bit mellow compared to Buffalo Bore, Swamp fox, Double Tap and Underwood offerings. Those number have appeal. When guys see that they can have 15+1 with 750-800 FPE in 10mm vs 12+1 or 13+1 at 350-550 FPE for .45, the only good reasons not to are that you don't like the recoil or want to suppress the weapon (10mm is a horrible candidate for suppression, my G20 is more obnoxious than a .308 rifle through the same SiCo Hybrid .46).
I doubt that 10mm will ever be a dominant cartridge, but I greet any rise in its popularity as a good thing.
I found the Glock 29 a sweet shooter and thoroughly understand why folk gravitate to Glocks to scratch their 10mm itch. It is the most power in the smallest package that is easy to shoot well.
OTOH, I likely will never get into Glocks or 10mm, as my family has committed to 1911 in .45ACP pretty heavily in guns & gear. I plan on making some mild modifications to my all-stainless SW1911 to make it ready for .45Super/SMC for a semi-auto woods gun. 10mmAuto and .45Super is a 6 vs half-dozen prospect, performance-wise. .45Super makes sense to those who already own an appropriate .45ACP.
I found the Glock 29 a sweet shooter and thoroughly understand why folk gravitate to Glocks to scratch their 10mm itch. It is the most power in the smallest package that is easy to shoot well.
OTOH, I likely will never get into Glocks or 10mm, as my family has committed to 1911 in .45ACP pretty heavily in guns & gear. I plan on making some mild modifications to my all-stainless SW1911 to make it ready for .45Super/SMC for a semi-auto woods gun. 10mmAuto and .45Super is a 6 vs half-dozen prospect, performance-wise. .45Super makes sense to those who already own an appropriate .45ACP.
For a product - any product - to become commercially successful it must meet a unmet need the intended consumer has with performance and price that the consumer is willing to pay.
I remember when the 10mm came out in the early 1980's. It was the cartridge that was going make up for the 9mm Luger's lack of stopping power and it wasn't going to have the limitations of the 45 ACP. Unfortunately, the punishing recoil, ballistics superior to the 40 S&W only when loaded near the max, the flawed initial launch, the FBI's adoption and swift un-adpotion of the cartridge all sent a mixed message to the marketplace as to whether the cartridge did fulfill unmet needs at performance and a price people were really willing to pay.
I see the 10mm as a niche cartridge whose popularity will wax and wane as people who have overlooked it or forgotten about it "rediscover" a cartridge that will supposedly fill the "sweet spot" between the 9mm and 45 ACP with all of the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither and the discover the 10mm does not live up to its potential.
I remember when the 10mm came out in the early 1980's. It was the cartridge that was going make up for the 9mm Luger's lack of stopping power and it wasn't going to have the limitations of the 45 ACP. Unfortunately, the punishing recoil, ballistics superior to the 40 S&W only when loaded near the max, the flawed initial launch, the FBI's adoption and swift un-adpotion of the cartridge all sent a mixed message to the marketplace as to whether the cartridge did fulfill unmet needs at performance and a price people were really willing to pay.
I see the 10mm as a niche cartridge whose popularity will wax and wane as people who have overlooked it or forgotten about it "rediscover" a cartridge that will supposedly fill the "sweet spot" between the 9mm and 45 ACP with all of the advantages of both and the disadvantages of neither and the discover the 10mm does not live up to its potential.
MachIVshooter
Member
The only "sweet spot" the 10mm hits between them is mag capacity. Ballistically, it outclasses both by a huge margin. As for it not living up to it's potential, I'm not sure I get your meaning. No other production cartridge that fits in a normal sized pistol outperforms it or boasts the same flexibility. It is perfectly suitable for defense, and also potent enough for hunting (here in CO, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and even .45 Super don't meet minimum 550 ft lbs @ 50 yards requirement, but full power 10mm does) Truly the only drawback is recoil, which is only a problem for some.
True, but you can't get something for nothing. The only way 10mm can outclass the other common autopistol cartridges as handily as it does is by pushing heavy bullets fast--and that has to result in more recoil.
It leaves me confused as well. It lives up to its potential as far as I can tell--the only people who are going to be disappointed with the 10mm are those who believe in magic. Those who think it's possible to get significantly increased performance without paying any penalties at all.
I have been shooting the 10mm since shortly after the Delta Elite was introduced. It has always been one of my favorite calibers. I currently own and shoot the Colt, a Glock 20 and a Sig 220.
People knock the light factory loads. I'll admit most are light compared to Norma which was all that was available when the 10 first hit the market. Today we have the options of light loads or stuff like BB. If you don't like light stuff then load up with the heavy stuff or reload your own to whatever specs you want.
The 38 spl / 357 mag is popular for its versatility. You can shoot paper or hunt with the same weapon just change ammo. These are the same reasons people are knocking the 10mm....versatility. What is there to complain about? Just change ammo to suite your needs.
I believe the current resurgence and popularity is due to a number of factors coming together or feeding on each other. First the 10mm is popular in Alaska where people really do need a firearm for protection. The Glock 20 has a strong following up there because of its size, weight and power. The word has spread about the 10mm in Alaska and now we have ammo manufactures making 10mm at its full potential. Other gun manufactures started making 10's to get a piece of the action. Then all of the above is written about in magazines or on the web and we read it then we want one.......or two ........or three.
Yes I am a big fan! There is a 10mm pistol and ammo combination available to fit almost every need from concealed carry to protection against dangerous game. And it does it better than any other combo out there.
People knock the light factory loads. I'll admit most are light compared to Norma which was all that was available when the 10 first hit the market. Today we have the options of light loads or stuff like BB. If you don't like light stuff then load up with the heavy stuff or reload your own to whatever specs you want.
The 38 spl / 357 mag is popular for its versatility. You can shoot paper or hunt with the same weapon just change ammo. These are the same reasons people are knocking the 10mm....versatility. What is there to complain about? Just change ammo to suite your needs.
I believe the current resurgence and popularity is due to a number of factors coming together or feeding on each other. First the 10mm is popular in Alaska where people really do need a firearm for protection. The Glock 20 has a strong following up there because of its size, weight and power. The word has spread about the 10mm in Alaska and now we have ammo manufactures making 10mm at its full potential. Other gun manufactures started making 10's to get a piece of the action. Then all of the above is written about in magazines or on the web and we read it then we want one.......or two ........or three.
Yes I am a big fan! There is a 10mm pistol and ammo combination available to fit almost every need from concealed carry to protection against dangerous game. And it does it better than any other combo out there.
cowboy77845
Member
Why has not anyone mentioned the S&W 610? That is a super neat revolver in10mm. Also expensive w/o lock. I know this is an auto thread but... if we are talking 10mm at least acknowledge the fact that a revolver is produced.
The reason is that the 610 is not "produced." It was produced in the past. It is not produced today and has not been produced in many years. I wish S&W would bring it back, but so far they have not. I think S&W probably took more lumps around the 10mm's initial market failings than anyone else. They went big into the caliber, and then saw it get dropped. They haven't ventured back into those waters for a while... even though it wouldn't be that difficult just to crank out some more 610's or even use the M&P45 frame as a basis for an M&P 10 (something that has been rumored from time to time but never actually produced by S&W).
Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
- Messages
- 13,275
Being somewhat un-enamored with Glocks, a S&W 2.0 in 10mm is something I'd definitely be interested in.
Me too. But I'm not holding my breath! I think S&W has financial PTSD from the 610 and 1006-series experience. They surly sunk a lot of money into those, and probably lost quite a bit when the 10mm wave suddenly flattened and virtually died.
I also wonder whether 10mm represents kind of a "sour spot" for a maker with a serious/generous warranty. Big-bore magnum revolver cartridges are inherently hard on guns, but very few shooters run through high volumes of them, which limits how many of those guns are actually run to the point of problems needing warranty work. 10mm is harder on guns than the other service-caliber semi-auto cartridges, though, and I suspect that a lot of 10mm shooters are relatively high-volume.
Just look back to 10+ years ago when Tanfoglio screwed up the heat treat on a batch of slides for the cheaper/non-Elite line of Witness guns. Those guns were chambered in 9, 38 super, 40, 45, and 10mm. Almost all of the complaints were about the 10mm's. I don't think it's because they got all the wrong heat treatment confined to those slides... it's just that the 10mm was testing the strength of the gun to a greater degree than the others. So that's where most of the cracking showed up.
If you shoot a lot of full-power 10mm ammo, you're going to discover any manufacturing flaws in the gun! If you're S&W and have a pretty consumer-friendly warranty approach, that means a fair number of warranty claims and related expense. For a close call (i.e., should S&W get back into 10mm), that might put a thumb on the scales in favor of "no."
FWIW, I hope I'm wrong. I, too, would like a 10mm M&P 2.0.
I also wonder whether 10mm represents kind of a "sour spot" for a maker with a serious/generous warranty. Big-bore magnum revolver cartridges are inherently hard on guns, but very few shooters run through high volumes of them, which limits how many of those guns are actually run to the point of problems needing warranty work. 10mm is harder on guns than the other service-caliber semi-auto cartridges, though, and I suspect that a lot of 10mm shooters are relatively high-volume.
Just look back to 10+ years ago when Tanfoglio screwed up the heat treat on a batch of slides for the cheaper/non-Elite line of Witness guns. Those guns were chambered in 9, 38 super, 40, 45, and 10mm. Almost all of the complaints were about the 10mm's. I don't think it's because they got all the wrong heat treatment confined to those slides... it's just that the 10mm was testing the strength of the gun to a greater degree than the others. So that's where most of the cracking showed up.
If you shoot a lot of full-power 10mm ammo, you're going to discover any manufacturing flaws in the gun! If you're S&W and have a pretty consumer-friendly warranty approach, that means a fair number of warranty claims and related expense. For a close call (i.e., should S&W get back into 10mm), that might put a thumb on the scales in favor of "no."
FWIW, I hope I'm wrong. I, too, would like a 10mm M&P 2.0.
Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
- Messages
- 13,275
I agree 100%. It's very unlikely S&W will delve back into 10mm for exactly the reasons you have mentioned. It's why I'm going to wait to see what SA comes out with. If their 10mm offering turns out to be vapor-ware, then a Glock 29 and 20 may be the two Glocks I ever own.
In the mean time, my Sig P220 has me covered. I promised myself I would never fire any watered down ammo out of that gun. I've only managed to put 300 rounds through it so far, but every one has been Sig Sauer FMJ's that are advertised at 1250 ft/sec I believe. For 180 gr ammo, that's certainly warmer than most of the big manufacturers out there.
I need to order some Underwood stuff. They make a 150 grain "Xtreme Hunter" loading that has some interesting numbers attached to it. I really wish they would start producing a 200 or 220 grain Xtreme Penetrator round. It'd be good medicine for angry critters, though maybe those bullet weights would limit velocities to speeds those bullet types aren't designed to work with. All the Lehigh loads are lite and very fast.
Zaydok Allen
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
- Messages
- 13,275
I hope this isn't too far off topic, but the capabilities of the cartridge seem directly linked to a possible resurgence to me, so I'm going to share.
I was curious about the above quoted topic and I decided to share my findings. I'm actually a little embarrassed and mad at myself for not figuring this out on my own.
I emailed Underwood and they sent me a detailed response. The reason the Xtreme series bullets are typically lite is because of the alloy weight. Because the copper alloy used is liter than lead, you would need to machine a much longer bullet to attain the same weights as a lead cast or cored bullet. The problem is that if you do that, the bullet becomes long enough to start infringing on powder capacity. This would likely result in tremendously reduced velocity.
So the bottom line is that the Lehigh loads are optimized for velocity the best they can be due to the bullet material used.
- Status
