Is the 12 gauge losing it's appeal as a defensive weapon

[Onmilo]

Like it or not, M16 and AK type firearms are beginning to nudge shotguns out of the limelight as defensive weapons for homesteaders in most all but the poorest huts.

Remember that a handgun is used to fight your way to your long gun.

 

[MCgunner]

While it can be an effective tool within a limited range it is never the best choice. At close range, inside 10-20 feet I'd just as soon have a handgun or lightweight carbine.

You must be kidding, trading 2000+ ft lbs for 400 don't seem like the thing to do unless you're carrying the weapon concealed.

Like it or not, M16 and AK type firearms are beginning to nudge shotguns out of the limelight as defensive weapons for homesteaders in most all but the poorest huts

My "hut" ain't that poor. I keep a coach gun at the ready, defend my chickens or myself with it. Seems FAR more versatile than an AR. I ain't fighting in Vietnam, I'm just living in rural Texas.

 

[MCgunner]

As to recoil, when it really matters, you don't feel recoil. I can fire off three rounds of 3 inch magnums against a flight of ducks, take down two or three, and never feel either the rounds or even remember pumping the action. The sounds is like a muffled sock even. Ditto for rabbit hunting.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this. Recoil of a shotgun does not bother me. I hunt geese with a 10 gauge and have a 3.5" 12. I've hunted ducks since the age of 14, doves since the age of 9. I'm 61 years old and I can still handle my old butt stompin' SxS 12. Slugs from that gun would make a girly man cry. Recoil is subjective. If you can't handle recoil, by all means, shoot a .22, but it's a matter of getting used to it. And, as the quote states, when the birds are flaring in over the deeks, doubles are not uncommon. Also, I find a gas auto SWEET to shoot for rapidity of fire, that follow up shot.

 

[Armored farmer]

Too many rounds thru an 870 to ever change my defensive gun to my AR. Plain 'ol ordinary wood stocked, 20" cyl bore wingmaster with #4 buck. No extensions or rails or headlites or turnsignals or secret compartments.

At some range...?? it is no longer defensive shooting. I tend to think within shotgun range as defensive.

take small game out to 100 yards or even a little farther with a rifled barrel,

....surely you mean large game?

 

[Jason_W]

yeah. Mistyped that.

Though, I guess if you're really good you could club a rabbit at that range with a slug.

 

[C0untZer0]

I've always wondered what a Lehigh type "Maximum Expansion" projectile would be like out of a rifled shotgun...

Or a foster-slug type round with the same type of design for hollow-point and expanding copper petals.

 

[PedalBiker]

I've stocked up with Remington Managed Recoil ammo for my Mossberg. They make both 00 Buck and Slugs. The 00 Buck gives up 1 pellet, and a little velocity, but gel tests show they're good enough.


I've done magazine dumps of 00 buck (full power) into a Tide container and I can say with no hesitation that recoil IS a factor. I can center the container every shot, but recovery time is slower than with a rifle. With an AR I could easily make hits 2x faster. You can argue the 12ga hits harder per shot, though.

I may consider a rifled barrel for the shotgun. Sabot slugs will recoil less, I'd just have to pattern buckshot from it at indoor ranges and see if the tradeoff works.

 

[pps]

In magazine restricted states like Kommifornia, where we are limited to 10 rounds or less in our AR's if we choose to obey a stupid law, the 8 rounds of 00bk for up close and personal encounters is a very viable option out of a shotgun.

Would I rather have 30 or 40 rounds of rock and roll out of a 16" carbine than 8 rounds from a shotgun, hell yes. Do my wife and kids operate the AR better than the shotgun, hell yes (though my 11 year old is getting pretty good with his 20 Ga. However, those of us who do not want to run afoul of the law here in the PRK are limited to 10 rounds and a stupid arse bullet button with our AR sporting rifles.

The 12 ga is not loosing it's appeal in my house, mostly because of the burdensome, moronic and tyrannical restrictions here in the PRK.

 

[goon]

I sold my last HD shotgun a couple years ago, but even with all the guns I've gone through since then, I'd like to replace it when the opportunity comes up.

 

[mikelj]

With an AR, you have to hit what your shooting at, with a shotgun, you only have to shoot a couple shots up into the air according to Biden.

Classic...can't believe it took 19 replies for someone to bring that up and that I didn't think of it first.

As to the OP's question, I think the 12 gauge has lost appeal to some, but probably shouldn't be forgotten as really viable alternative for HD. My wife doesn't go to the range or really "like" guns, but she knows where the Mossberg pump is and how to use it if she has to.

 

[plumberroy]

Maybe with the tacticool group. First I am not police or military so shooting at some one out of shotgun range will be hard to justify as defence Number 2 20-30 rounds winged down range out of a semi that don't hit something are useless and that is the mind set of a lot AR/AK set number 3 If a do have to fight with a rifle don't plan on hiding behind a car . Very few things made that are as versitile as a 18"-21" barreled 12 ga pumpgun with a little choke
Roy

 

[Mike1234567]

I'm putting a decent AR in .223 together right now... but it won't replace my 12ga for HD. The first firearm I reach for is an 18 shot 9mm and that's just because it's quicker to grab. Then I pocket the 9mm when I reach for the shotgun with 8 rounds of #4 buckshot.

 

[Girodin]

As to recoil, when it really matters, you don't feel recoil.

If you can't handle recoil, by all means, shoot a .22, but it's a matter of getting used to it

People that make comments like this seem to not understand what it is people actually are referring to when they mention recoil. It is not the "ouch" factor of recoil. Rather it is that a weapon with more recoil is slower in followups and transitions.

A 7.62x39 has more recoil than a 5.56. We could shoot 2K rounds of x39 in a weekend and it wont beat you up but most people are going to be measurable slower in their follow ups and transitions.

If you can pull off followups and transitions as fast with a shotgun shooting defensive ammo as you can with an AR I would be might impressed (or perhaps very unimpressed with your speed with the AR).

Also, it still is easier to hit with a shotgun. Nobody hunts rabbit with a .223 (except for the anecdote that WILL arrive pretty quick). A running rabbit is a tough hit with a rifle (I tried once with a .22lr) but not hard with a shotgun.

Really??? I see rifles used more than anything else for shooting jackrabbits out west.

 

[nathan]

I have two Remingtons here , one 20 inch fixed IC bore for home defense and the other with 28 inch with modified choke. BOth loaded with 00 bks purchased from Walmart. If i have to use it, theres no Walmart telling what these shotguns can do....

 

[Derry 1946]

Mossy 500 guy. Studies have demonstrated beyond cavil that the racking sound disables the CNS of the BG, who instantly gives up and apologizes for B&E. OK, I'm kidding about that. Some potential advantages of the pump shotgun for HD: time-tested platform; reliable action; inexpensive. Many say there is less risk of overpenetration in the house. I've never fired it in my house, so I have no firsthand experience with that. FWIW, I think DA/judge/jury will be slightly less likely to try to make an example of a homeowner with a Biden-approved pump shotty than an EBR, but I admit that's speculative. It will probably look scary enough to the perp, for whatever that may be worth in the heat of the moment, but not too exotically scary to jurors who are not gun people. I think for me it came down to conventional wisdom, simplicity of operation, and cost, not necessarily in that order. YMMV.

 

[MCgunner]

People that make comments like this seem to not understand what it is people actually are referring to when they mention recoil. It is not the "ouch" factor of recoil. Rather it is that a weapon with more recoil is slower in followups and transitions.

Speed of a back up shot is important in playing games. I mean hell, a .22LR is faster than any .223! If speed did the killing, I'd use my 10/22. But, if I'm contemplating killing someone, I ain't playing games. I keep a coach gun handy. It delivers nearly twice the energy and is 2.5 times bigger in bore diameter (20 gauge). I didn't buy it for home defense, it's my primary dove gun and a good all around woods gun, but I'm quite familiar with it from all the hunting I've done with it, it fits and shoots were I look. I'm not a cop nor a soldier, I'm simply a rurally located armed citizen.

Now, I have 12 gauges I could use instead of my 20, but that's another discussion. I like that little 20, light and handy and quick. I feel confident with it. I have a tacticooled SKS if I thought a rifle was better or necessary, but it's the 20 I keep handy.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
Also, it still is easier to hit with a shotgun. Nobody hunts rabbit with a .223 (except for the anecdote that WILL arrive pretty quick). A running rabbit is a tough hit with a rifle (I tried once with a .22lr) but not hard with a shotgun.

Really??? I see rifles used more than anything else for shooting jackrabbits out west.

Trust me, the Jack (actually a hare, not a rabbit) is a lot easier to spot and shoot with a rifle. Now, I've shot cotton tails on the run with a .22 rifle, but the post is correct, it's a LOT harder. If I get enough time to get one him, I can hit him SOME of the time.

The rifle must be aimed with sights. If one knows how to use a shotgun and it properly fits, it comes to the shoulder without going to it. One's eye will be looking at the target over the rib, no sights involved, much quicker. This is what makes shotguns better for bird hunting. It's not just a safety issue.

I've taken jacks with a pistol. They just sit there and say "shoot me" Too, their habitat is usually less brushy, more open. I've taken cottontail by pistol, too, but it was usually at night over the hood of my truck in the headlights. I did take one from my box blind this year, a swamp rabbit, with an NAA mini revolver. But, if I'm actually rabbit hunting, I take a quick pointing shotgun.

 

[Jason_W]

Really??? I see rifles used more than anything else for shooting jackrabbits out west.

if it's the kind of rabbit you'd actually want to eat, you wouldn't want to hit it with a centerfire.

 

[Girodin]

Speed of a back up shot is important in playing games. I mean hell, a .22LR is faster than any .223! If speed did the killing, I'd use my 10/22.

So the speed of a follow up shot or transition to a second or third target is not relevant to defensive shooting? That is a pretty dubious contention IMHO. In time is life situations, getting quick hits counts for a lot. If BG #2 is an immediate threat to one's life the speed you can get to him absolutely matters. Tell your self that the ability to get a quick second or third hit or to transition to a second or third target is a gun game skill if you like, but I think it is axiomatic that it can be extremely relevant to defensive shooting. Yes a .22 LR allows even faster followups. Obviously the speed of followups is not the only concern. However, balancing speed and terminal ballistics can be done without selling out whole sale for one or the other. No one has said that the lesser recoil of a carbine is the only consideration (same can be said for any other attribute mentions mag capacity, simplicity of manual of arms, terminal ballistics, barrier penetration etc, etc,) but it is an advantage that goes towards a carbine.

Trust me, the Jack (actually a hare, not a rabbit) is a lot easier to spot and shoot with a rifle. Now, I've shot cotton tails on the run with a .22 rifle, but the post is correct, it's a LOT harder. If I get enough time to get one him, I can hit him SOME of the time.

Where I live there are both cotton tails and jacks. I only hunt Jacks these days. However, when I was hunger I hunted cotton tails for eating too. Other than the fact that cotton tails are smaller I've not noticed much difference in hunting and shooting them. Cotton tails appear to be slower to me. From what I have seen of people who course them they seem to be much easier caught than the jacks. I don't use the 22-250 for the cotton tails though, for obvious reasons. I've shot, I do not even know how many, cotton tails with a .22LR though. I'd agree it is easier to roll a rabbit with a shotgun though. Absolutely no argument. I was just a bit surprised by the suggestion that no one uses a rifle to do it. That said I think shooting rabbits with shotguns has very little to do with defensive shooting. Same with shooting ducks, pheasants, doves etc. Wing shooting is different in many many respects from CQB shooting.

There is a reason that guys that do that type of thing for a living have long used sub guns over shotguns and more and more use M4 types over both. That absolutely doesn't mean a shotgun can't get the job done but there is a difference between can work and is the best tool for the job. A pro going in to clear a room is not 1:1 with the requirements of HD. That said most of the differences would IMHO cut towards the carbine. No one is saying a shotgun is not a very viable choice. However, there is a growing trend away from them. The main thing that keeps them in the game is their cost vis-a-vis various carbines.

If someone feels good about having a coach gun, more power to them. I personally would not feel good about having two shots when I have so many better choices. Surely my background influences that feeling as well. But different strokes for different folks. Is a coach gun up to the task of self defense? It may well be. Is an M4 style gun a head and shoulders better CQB weapon. Unquestionably. So are various other semi auto and even pump shotguns.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

Inside my house a 12ga pump shotgun will be the choice for HD. A no frills pump action 12ga with a 18.5" barrel is hard to beat. Any situation outside the confines of my house I'd definitely opt for a AR-15 type rifle.

 

[MCgunner]

Where I live there are both cotton tails and jacks. I only hunt Jacks these days. However, when I was hunger I hunted cotton tails for eating too. Other than the fact that cotton tails are smaller I've not noticed much difference in hunting and shooting them. Cotton tails appear to be slower to me. From what I have seen of people who course them they seem to be much easier caught than the jacks.

You must live near a marijuana farm.

So the speed of a follow up shot or transition to a second or third target is not relevant to defensive shooting? That is a pretty dubious contention IMHO. In time is life situations, getting quick hits counts for a lot. If BG #2 is an immediate threat to one's life the speed you can get to him absolutely matters. Tell your self that the ability to get a quick second or third hit or to transition to a second or third target is a gun game skill if you like

I'm not going to war, just defending my home, and I don't live in Detroit. I don't think that if anyone actually found my place, they'd keep charging in the face of shotgun fire. Can't spend the money you steal if you're dead. I don't live in Fallujah. If I did, I'd move. To me, the awesome deterant factor of the shotgun, the power, the point and shoot qualities of a good handling and well fitted shotgun, are far more desirable. I hate the ergos of the AR or any pistol gripped weapon. I'm much more comfortable with a shotgun. YMMV So be it.

 

[Girodin]

You must live near a marijuana farm.

I'm not sure I follow, nor am I'm sure that your intent was particularly high road, but whatever.

I'm not going to war, just defending my home, and I don't live in Detroit.

Every individual's situation is different. Any one person's isn't that relevant to broader trends in weapons. If I live in utopia where the only reason anyone ever would come to my house is to share and sing Kumbaya. That really isn't that relevant to broader trends of the world. Nor is it even very pertinent what might be a good idea for anyone else who doesn't share that particular situation.

I don't think that if anyone actually found my place, they'd keep charging in the face of shotgun fire.

You'd be shocked at some of the things I've seen through my career. Some people don't even slow down that much when actually shot. Sure others head for hills at boo. I never presume to think that anyone that presents a credible threat to my life is going to act in accordance with any preconceived notions I or anyone else might have about how they should behave. Often at the point someone has put him or herself in a scenario to be shot they are pretty far outside the rational actor model. Also don't underestimate the stellar decision making people under the influence can display. Almost daily I see people that do things that wouldn't make an ounce of sense to you or I.

For a rather well known incident of someone who was not dettered in the least by the presentation of a weapon, or being fired at research Gary Fadden's defensive shooting. This is the incident where after a burst of fully automatic fire by Mr. Fadden the bad guy yelled:"F*** you and your high powered rifle! I’m gonna kill you motherf***ers!" and charged. So yeah, people do things one wouldn't imagine they would.

I quite honestly am not particularly concerned with home invasions really. They are rare to begin with. The vast vast vast majority of them I have seen are of stash houses or other drug/gang related residences. I've seen more hot burglaries , but they are not particularly common. That said, if I'm going to keep something around for the off chance, there is no need to artificially handicap myself with an antiquated weapon. It would be like deliberately putting a lap seatbelt in my car and turning off the airbags. The fact is a shotgun has very little going for it over an AR. That is why many users are going away from them.

 

[Girodin]

To me, the awesome deterant (sic) factor of the shotgun,

Is a shotgun truly more of a deterrent than an AR? If someone is an immediate threat to your life (id they are not what they hell are you presenting a weapon for) are you planning to provide them adequate time to discern what you are armed with, evaluate it and react? That seems like an interesting idea, to say the least.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm not sure I follow, nor am I'm sure that your intent was particularly high road, but whatever.

Just saying there's some reason your cottontails are more mellow than ours. Perhaps they're stoned.

 

[splattergun]

12 ga losing its appeal as a defensive weapon.... ? Popularity, likely. Appeal, perhaps. Efficacy, definitely not.