Is this common at IDPA matches?

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Folks, I don't know a single thing about IDPA. I have shot a few USPSA/IPSC matches, and didn't do too badly.

However, I must be a stick in the mud--because I fail to see anything FUN and RELAXING about having to shoot unrealistic scenarios, under unrealistic conditions, with unrealistic rules (as far as I can see). Toss in someone with a Napoleon complex yelling at you, and in my way of thinking that's a perfectly good way to ruin your day.

If I go to the range for a fun shoot, me and a couple of friends bring out some steel targets, set them up in various configurations, and go about hosing them with our handguns of choice. One week, it might be revolvers, next week semiautos.

If I go to the range for practice, it's different. I put on my duty gear and practice, along with anyone else who is with me. We practice holster presentations, two and three shot drills, position shooting, and a bunch of other stuff.

What do I see in the original and some subsequent posts?

1. FDTR. Please!
A gun fight might be over with NO rounds fired. It might resolve itself with one or two rounds. It might take a reload. But--if you're in a situation that requires you to "run and gun", doing multiple reloads, you'd better have a rifle.

2. Procedural errors.

I don't care what position you practice in, or shoot in. As long as the basic gun safety rules are followed, and you can put steel on target, that's what matters. And, what's the proper procedure for a life-or-death battle? If you're NOT cheating in a real gunfight, you'll probably get shot or killed.

There is more in the post, but I think you get my drift.
 
Powderman -

IDPA is a game - it's not self defense training, and never claimed to be. The rules were largely established to keep the equipment requirements reasonable, and offer shooters to improve their practical gun-handling skills. Some that participate seem to forget that, and they're the one's I hear griping about the rules. But those who have no illusions about the "training" IDPA offers have quite a lot of fun.

As an aside, the relatively rigid rules help keep it safe, too, especially for new shooters. No crack on USPSA (I shoot it, too), but I know of a venue owner that started hosting USPSA events, then had 2nd thoughts when he saw shooters - including experienced USPSA shooters - shoot so out of control, a number of rounds came dangerously close to going over the berm.
 
Powderman, that is all fair enough, and I certainly see your points. But let me make a few counter-points and maybe we can help bridge the perceived gap between fun and games, so to speak.

However, I must be a stick in the mud--because I fail to see anything FUN and RELAXING about having to shoot unrealistic scenarios, under unrealistic conditions, with unrealistic rules (as far as I can see) ...
If I go to the range for a fun shoot, me and a couple of friends bring out some steel targets, set them up in various configurations, and go about hosing them with our handguns of choice.
Several things here. If you don't enjoy the scenarios and you find rules in general to be stifling, then organized competition is never going to appeal to you. And that's perfectly fine. If you prefer setting out an array of targets and just plain shooting them -- that's great!

If, however, you like to work through more complex shooting problems, and test out more complicated skills, then a formal match setting can offer you a chance to compare "apples-to-apples" how well you do a task vs. how someone else might do it. By somewhat strictly defining what the shooter is supposed to do, you get everyone to try to accomplish the same task in relatively the same way, so making time and accuracy comparisons between shooters is relevant.

IDPA tends to test a very specific set of motions on any given stage as the positions and order are pre-determined ("how fast and accurately can you shoot this stage THIS way?)." USPSA tends to test a bit more of pre-shoot strategizing as the shooter may choose to approach the stage in a different way than others did and so save time by his approach, rather than his speed. (I.e., "How fast a way can you find to shoot this stage?")

Either way, a competition also gives you a chance to benefit from a larger group's efforts in setting up a series of complex shooting problems and providing a set competition and safety format which means you get to do more shooting and more involved shooting without having to do quite so much setting up and breaking down, and dealing with the "logistics" of range day. That can be of great benefit, even if you don't care at all about competition results.

Toss in someone with a Napoleon complex yelling at you, and in my way of thinking that's a perfectly good way to ruin your day.
And that's a great way to ruin any day. No one should act like that on the range (unless there is a safety issue), competition or no.

If I go to the range for practice, it's different. I put on my duty gear and practice, along with anyone else who is with me. We practice holster presentations, two and three shot drills, position shooting, and a bunch of other stuff.
So you split your range days between "practice" and "fun shoots?" That's fine, and a good ol' fashioned blasting day can be a hoot. If that's what you're looking for, avoiding a competition setting makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, from a "practice" setting, competition can be whatever you're willing to make out of it. Want to race? That's fine, and you might win a plaque or some bragging rights. Want to practice sound self-defense techniques? That's o.k. too (maybe mention that to the SO) take your time, use cover correctly, use your duty or carry equipment, and make the most of some varied and interesting shooting problem-solving opportunities.

I shoot with a few law-enforcement types who do exactly that. I've SO'd officers who will take 5 minutes (instead of the usual 1-1/2 minute par time) to work through our shoot house (as an example) because they are being exceedingly careful not to expose themselves to threats, making sure they identify the non-threats correctly, avoiding potentially lethal blind corners and other pitfalls. They're very happy for the opportunity to shoot a more complex scene, rather than the stand-and-deliver qualification stuff they normally can do, or whatever scenario stages they might have the time and energy to set up on their own.

unrealistic scenarios, ... with unrealistic rules (as far as I can see)
This is, IMHO, a frequently misunderstood issue. If you read through the rule book, there are hints about this written right in there. The "unrealistic" scenarios are not supposed to be taken at face value -- as though you'll get out on the street and someone will be telling you, "now stand on one foot and hide behind this paper tree..." In the real world, you may have to shoot under a car, but over the curb it's parked next to. Or you may have very scant cover and have to shield yourself behind something oddly-shaped, like a fire plug. Or, you might have to move a certain odd direction, while shooting at the threat as you can. Or, might have to move forward because of something changing or unpleasant behind you, when you'd rather move back, etc. We can't duplicate every REAL threat or condition on the range, but we can write stages that make the shooter perform a specific, unusual shooting task. The point is not to suffer through the stages complaining about how unrealistically they might be written, but to practice the widest possible variety of shooting tasks so that, no matter what you end up having to do in real life, you've gotten to practice something like that before.

Now, some folks can't get past the idea of shooting scenarios featuring many (up to nine in IDPA) attackers or that require a lot of movement (only 15 total yards in IDPA). My view is this: No, if there are nine armed guys out to get me, I'm probably not going to prevail. Accepted. However, if I set up one target, or two, or three, I can script out my motions and sort of choreograph how I will shoot. Strategize, plan, and completely unrealistically predetermine how I'll shoot the scene. The more targets I add, and the more movement I have to do, the less capably I can control all that, and the more I am forced to shoot in reaction to the targets as I see them. It isn't completely realistically random, but the longer and more involved the stage may be, the closer we're getting to pure reactive skills.

In other words, not choreographing, "now, my foot will go here, tap-tap, then three steps, half-turn, tap-tap, reload, step, step, break the next shot..." That is predictive. Instead, working reactively, so that your motions and shots are defined by the cover as you find it and the targets as you happen to see them. Personally, I'd much MUCH favor "blind" stages, but there are competition reasons why we don't usually run those. A long stage with lots of "threats" is about the next best thing.

under unrealistic conditions
Competition often wins here, too. In the action shooting sports, we've got many (sometimes hundreds) of competitors traveling to shoot, lots of time and effort expended, and the show will go on. I've shot in torrential rain (MANY times), blizzard conditions, hungover, sick, COLLLLLD, so hot the sweat ran off my hands and stung my eyes, wearing shorts, t-shirt, and tennis shoes, wearing three pairs of pants, five shirts, and coveralls, snow boots and gaiters -- you name it.

Last year I shot a match where the temps didn't break the mid 20s, 8" of snow fell during the match, and I had been violently ill all week, still couldn't eat, and was weak as a kitten.

If I was just plinking or even seriously practicing on my own time, I'd have been home in bed with some chicken soup, where it was warm, where it was dry, reclining in the A/C, or otherwise avoiding those "unrealistic conditions" present at probably 30% of the matches I shoot. I'd only shoot my guns when they were clean and comfortable to the touch. I'd never engage any targets after taking a swan dive onto a piece of carpet under an inch of 40 deg. rainwater. I'd have never run my gun after picking my mags up out of a foot of heavily trampled mud. I'd have never had to use two hands to change mags 'cause my thumbs were too cold to work the mag catch. ETC.

But, thanks to the unrealistic nature of competition, I have done all those things and know what to expect if I ever have to "for real."

1. FDTR. Please!
IF you accept that there is any validity to competition, then you have to accept that there are some rules to define what everyone's doing. If there are no rules, we could all "WIN" in the best possible way by reacting to the timer "BEEP" by immediately running to our cars and GOING HOME! Hey, no shots fired and I made it home alive -- I WON! :)

If there are rules, then there exists the chance for someone to try and break them -- not in order to save their own life as in a gun fight -- but to simply walk away with a trophy or award that they didn't actually earn as the other shooters did. That's demonstrably unethical, and the sort of thing a "Failure To Do Right" penalty is supposed to deal with. If you want a trophy and you can't out-shoot your fellow competitors -- go BUY one. Don't cheat them and yourself.

But--if you're in a situation that requires you to "run and gun", doing multiple reloads, you'd better have a rifle.
Really? Most of us don't carry rifles around all day. What are we supposed to do? Quit? Ask for a gun-fight rain-check 'cause we didn't bring the right equipment? Maybe being able to move and shoot is an important skill to have -- with the equipment you actually DO carry.

2. Procedural errors.
I'm guessing you really haven't read through the rules if you're complaining about PEs. 1st off they are MINOR score hits. 2nd, a lot of them make some sense.

Like, don't lean out from behind cover and expose yourself to bad guy A in order to shoot bad guy B who is more hidden. Take care of the bad guys in the order you see them and they would see you. Common sense, right? Yeah, pretty much. So, if you stand out from behind cover and shoot like you're bulletproof, you're going to get three seconds added to your time. Hey, it's probably not a good idea anyway. Why complain about the three second penalty?

Or, don't leave a position of cover and then do a reload. Get your gun loaded before you head out into danger. Makes sense, right?

Or, don't drop your ammo and leave it behind. Yeah, if pressed you might have to do a speed reload and might leave a round or two in a spent mag, but most folks don't carry a whole lot of ammo every day -- might be a good idea to remember to keep it with you. Who knows, you might want it later.

If getting 3 seconds tacked onto your score for such things is really killing you, I guess it's YOU that's taking things too seriously. :)
 
There is definitely a lack of consistency among clubs when it comes to enforcing the rules. This results in the scenarios noted. To me, the good thing about shooting matches with a fixed set of rules is that they should be the same any where I go.

Whenever I shoot an IDPA match I expect to shoot by IDPA rules. Sounds simple enough to me, but some people complain about it.

I've shot five IDPA National Championships. I can tell you one thing I ALWAYS see there. Every time I see competitors that break the rules, then complain when they get procedurals, then they always say "that's the way I've always done it back at my home club".
 
I consider shooting like fishing.

My worst day shooting (with the exception of safety issues) is still better than my best day working.

Period!

Give me all the tricky stage setups, course of fire rules, etc. etc. I will do it over and over in a heart beat.

Throw in rain, mud, snow or sand ... I will still do it with a big grin on my face. :D
 
Don't feel bad, some people take themselves too seriously. When I was actively involved in IDPA I was the club leader in accumulated penalty times. One of the other ROs actually changed his make ready commands....



RO-'Does the shooter understand the course of fire?'
Me-'Yup'
RO-'Does the shooter intend to follow that course of fire?'
Me- 'Nope'


It probably didn't help that the courses were goofy as all heck. I started with the closest one and worked out, speed reload and use as many rounds as needed.
 
My policy in cases where a shooter announced he was not going to follow the CoF because of the higher calling of his tactical training or his idea of fun was to tell him that as long as he was safe, I would furnish a start signal and an unload and show clear drill, but would record no time or score.
 
I got a proceedural one time for rd dumping. I just took it because it wasn't worth aurguing with an SO who I could tell didn't like me as he was extra tough on me for everything. On a CoF he dumped rds where everyone else was so I made the comment to him "nice make up shot" he took obvios offence but couldn't do anything about it. I watched my P's and Q's for the rest of the match so not to give a reason for any more calls. Turns out that the girl I was talking to and flirting a little with in the squad was a girl he brought.....my bad :)
 
Jeeze, I was interested in competitive pistol shooting until I came here! If I want to get screamed at I'll stay home with the wife!
 
You won't get yelled at.

IDPA does have more rules as far as how and when you have to engage targets, and where and how you can reload, but USPSA does not.

I shoot whatever one is having a match for that particular weekend and enjoy both.
 
The behavior described in the first post is generally outside the norm for IDPA. I've been a couple of clubs where there have been some bad apple Safety Officers, but for the most part it's fairly unusual to have a martinet screaming at you for this and that. I've been shooting IDPA since 2008, and I've shot major matches in multiple states and at literally dozens of different clubs. In that time I've encountered 3 types of IDPA Safety Officers.

  1. The Competitor: This is the most common type of safety officer, he or she is someone that loves the sport and wants to help it by volunteering their time.
  2. The Dude: The dude abides. This guy is everyone's buddy, is fairly lenient on procedurals and cover calls, and just generally fun to shoot with.
  3. The Rule Nazi: This is the type of SO described in the first post, and thankfully the rarest. The problem with the RN is that they can easily ruin a match for every shooter in their squad. Rule Nazis also tend to flock together and are more powerful in packs.

The thing to remember about the Rule Nazis is that they're not representative of the entire sport. I've had safety officers spend entire matches just waiting for the excuse to give me a procedural or FTDR because they felt that I was gaming things. The only way to deal with a Rule Nazi is to play by the rules. Don't do anything illegal or questionable, and be polite and everything should be fine. Learn the rule nazi's name...and never squad with them again.

Oh yeah, I also stand on one foot a lot at matches - it's often the easiest way to get shots from behind a tight position of cover.

-Caleb
 
The best way to deal with the rule nazis is to know the rules better than them.
 
Honestly, unless it's at a major match where trophies are on the line, I let the rule nazis call whatever they want to call on me. Club matches are for practicing match skills to polish up for majors, anyway. In a major match, if I'm given an incorrect penalty I'll protest it, but otherwise it's just not worth the drama.
 
Really glad I never met an official like that. Would have put me off any sort of competitive shooting.

I've had some procedurals called in tactical rifle that aren't procedurals in IDPA. Some rules don't translate, or are different.

Sometimes a scenario makes little sense. Like "yeah, like I'm going to draw my gun and blaze away at 15 armed guys in a bank."

Some make way too much sense. "Your arms are full of groceries and a baby while fumbling for your keys someone tries to mug you."

I've seen plenty of arguments as to why the first scenario is totally plausible and why the second would NEVER happen.

It's my belief that most blind stages should be shot slowly and deliberately. Many people disagree with me.

I've found that in most competitions, when you're new, a lot of SO's will give you pointers and try to help you out as long as you are 1. safe and 2. willing to listen.
 
At club matches around here, we (SOs) are sure to note who the newbies are before we start, so we can be especially helpful!:D
 
4) If you are at a firing position and someone starts yelling "cover" ignore them. You have already earned a 3 sec. penalty and there is no reason to take another 4secs. trying to correct it. Just blaze away and take your 3 secs. you paid for them so enjoy them.

I'm not sure how it is in other matches, but in the ones i run and have participated in, the RO's job is to help you have a good stage by directing you where to go, and correcting you verbally if you misstep. you are only penalized if you ignore his instructions.
 
4) If you are at a firing position and someone starts yelling "cover" ignore them. You have already earned a 3 sec. penalty

Not that I have seen.
The Florida State a couple of weekends ago had one stage where they really held your feet to the fire on cover. There were a lot of "Cover!" calls and a lot of procedural penalties BUT as long as the shooter cringed back into adequate cover when called, he did not get a procedural. The only procedurals I saw were when the shooter fired a shot after the call without shifting position into more cover.
 
It seems in every sport there are guy's like that. Seemingly normal in real life, but give them a bit of power and they go nuts. Personally, I have never had an SO do that but I use to play fast pitch softball, and one guy on our team was so crazy in the dugout and one the filed we asked him to leave a couple times. He would be back the next game acting like a regular guy until someone did something he though was going to hurt our scores. He would end up fuming, and then go outright crazy. Sports do this to some people. We ended up hoping he would not return the following year and he didn't come back.....the successive seasons were a lot more fun.
 
The Florida State a couple of weekends ago had one stage where they really held your feet to the fire on cover. There were a lot of "Cover!" calls and a lot of procedural penalties BUT as long as the shooter cringed back into adequate cover when called, he did not get a procedural. The only procedurals I saw were when the shooter fired a shot after the call without shifting position into more cover.

That was nice of the SOs to give warnings and not give procedurals if the shooter corrected themselves.
I believe they are well within their rights to give a procedural without a warning. I will typically attempt to warn a shooter but if they are faster than I can get the words out then I will record what they earned.
 
I will typically attempt to warn a shooter but if they are faster than I can get the words out then I will record what they earned.
I believ it's Fran Glover who's famous for including the shouted word, "COVER!" duing his pre-match breifing. Followed up by, "There's y'all's warnin!" :)
 
I believ it's Fran Glover who's famous for including the shouted word, "COVER!" duing his pre-match breifing. Followed up by, "There's y'all's warnin!"

I think you mean Frank...and yep.
 
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