Isn't the forward assist on an AR a dumb idea?

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Read the first sentence in post# 50. This idea is only valid if the bolt carrier isn't very hot. OK for a hunter who rarely gets the bolt carrier too hot to touch, but remember: This gun was designed for soldiers who, in combat, are likely to have the bolt carrier too hot to touch.

I never said it was ideal. I believe “in a pinch” is representative of that. Also read post #90.

 

[someguy2800]

He mentioned using it when his AR wouldn't fire. A tap on the F/A apparently solved the problem.

Just a small correction to that, If he had pulled the trigger and then pushed the forward assist it still wouldn’t have fired because the hammer would be uncocked. There is nothing in an AR to prevent the hammer from releasing if the bolt isn’t in battery so the hammer would just hit the bottom of the bolt carrier.

He actually visually saw that his bolt was out of battery before trying to fire, which was amazingly lucky.

 

[troy fairweather]

Just a small correction to that, If he had pulled the trigger and then pushed the forward assist it still wouldn’t have fired because the hammer would be uncocked. There is nothing in an AR to prevent the hammer from releasing if the bolt isn’t in battery so the hammer would just hit the bottom of the bolt carrier.

He actually visually saw that his bolt was out of battery before trying to fire, which was amazingly lucky.

He saw the bcg was out of battery and hit the fa, way better move then pulling the ch. That may have caused more problems without pulling the mag, he didn't have time to pull the mag clear rounds then insert the mag and charge the gun.

 

[tark]

I am much more interested in your avatar .45 1911 than forward assist arguments pro and con on an AR .

My retirement present from Les Baer, in 2013. I worked for him for 21 years.

 

[someguy2800]

He saw the bcg was out of battery and hit the fa, way better move then pulling the ch. That may have caused more problems without pulling the mag, he didn't have time to pull the mag clear rounds then insert the mag and charge the gun.

No argument there. It’s a good example of knowing when to use it and when not to use it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The AR charging handle is fir retracting the bolt only.
There is no mechanical contact between the charging handle and the bolt going forward.

Well, except for the fact that the bolt will pull the charging handle forward. The bolt doesn't slam home without the charging handle being in the forward position.

I often wonder if some guy somewhere said “I wish I had a dollar for every time the validity of forward assists are brought up.” And at that same moment a Genie granted his wish with the promise that he’ll make just enough money to buy a case of Natural lite beer every few months. His Genie is a jerk.

All Kyle Rittenhouse would have gotten is a stupid dollar. Oh wait, it saved his life. The thing about emergency or crisis equipment (and a gun going down in battle is a crisis of sorts), is that it isn't about how much you need it, but that it works when you do need it.

------------------------------------

I am not a combat veteran, but I have used the forward assist numerous times while hunting. It is great for quietly chambering a round. What sucks is realizing you have an empty chamber and no forward assist and and being on a group of hogs and realizing that you are going to have to drop the bolt and try pulling the trigger before the spooked hogs ruin your shot.

I have had that happen on the ground a couple of times. Mistakes happen, but mistakes aren't always the problem. Probably a half dozen times in my first 7 yeas of hunting that I have unloaded, climbed into my tree stand, only to realize hogs showed up while I was climbing.

I can make the AR15 work either way, but I MUCH PREFER having the option of the forward assist.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

I agree in principle, however, in a pinch you can push forward on the bolt using the cam cutout for the dust cover latch.

A couple questions:

First, does the bolt get hot? I seem to remember grease guns had cutouts to retract the bolts on the later models, and always wondered about this on them as well.

Second, is there any downside to having a forward assist? I generally prefer simpler setups, and actually thought the original charging handle on the XM-15 original Armalite AR-15 was a good idea, though it of course didn't allow for a flat top.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Yes, the bolt and carrier get hot (in this case the cutout is in the bolt carrier). The exhaust vent for the gas impingement operating system is in this slot as well. A handful of shots will get it too hot to touch with an unprotected finger.

There is no material benefit of not having a forward assist. You will not walk further, hunt longer, shoot straighter, reduce risk, increase reliability, clean faster, fight harder or defend better without a forward assist. As I mentioned in my first post on the subject, I have never been in any situation in which I have thought “this forward assist is limiting me.” If you, simply by preference, want a cleaner, smoother sided AR15, then there are options for that. Further more, for the average recreational user of an AR15, the absence of the forward assist also introduces nearly zero material risk. For a recreational user of an AR15, it is strictly a preference to have or have not, a forward assist. It’s no different than wanting ambidextrous controls, an extended magazine release, specialized trigger or any other ergonomic or esthetic preference.

For someone who’s using for defense or offense, deleting the forward assist just eliminates one more option in a critical situation. In those situations, as the cliche goes “better to have and not need than need and not have.”

The question better asked is: for what you depend on an AR15 for, does the preference for the esthetics of no forward assist outweigh the risk of having on less option in a critical situation? Only you can answer that.

A couple questions:

First, does the bolt get hot? I seem to remember grease guns had cutouts to retract the bolts on the later models, and always wondered about this on them as well.

Second, is there any downside to having a forward assist? I generally prefer simpler setups, and actually thought the original charging handle on the XM-15 original Armalite AR-15 was a good idea, though it of course didn't allow for a flat top.

 

[someguy2800]

All Kyle Rittenhouse would have gotten is a stupid dollar. Oh wait, it saved his life. The thing about emergency or crisis equipment (and a gun going down in battle is a crisis of sorts), is that it isn't about how much you need it, but that it works when you do need it.

It certainly did. There are so many situations and what ifs that you could go in circles for hours. In Rittenhouse's case it worked for him and was the right thing to do. If he didn't have a forward assist, or if he had already pulled the trigger, he would have had to retract the mag, pull the charging handle, and let the bolt fly and hope that got the round fully in battery, or pull the mag completely out and shake the offending roung out the mag well. A push of the forward assist was certainly faster with a mob descending on him. I remember watching a video talking about the army testing colt's version of the forward assist and springfield armor's version. They did cold weather testing, sand testing, and mud testing. They said the mud testing was where they found it to be most needed and effective, but forcing the bolt closed on a muddy chamber usually ripped the rim off the case and required a cleaning rod to fix, but at least you got one more round off which could be the difference. Many pitfalls possible for both using it and not using it. I am still in camp "better to have it, but be very careful about using it".

 

[MEHavey]

is there any downside to having a forward assist?

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
For minimal cost, I vote for Linus' Blanket

 

[mljdeckard]

I concur with the OP. I was in and out of the army for 32 years, I NEVER had a situation thar the FA made BETTER. I won't use it, I clear the malfunction.

 

[someguy2800]

There is no material benefit of not having a forward assist.

The only potential downside I can think of is that it is possible for it to get stuck and cause a malfunction. I had this happen to me once on my coyote gun. I had a failure to eject on the first round and when I tried to pull the charging handle the bolt was stuck on the forward assist. The plunger was pushed forward a bit and was stuck in its bore. I wiggled it and was able to free it and pull it back out. Later I took it out and found it was rusty from having gotten wet and not getting the water flushed out with oil. I probably bumped it on something and it stayed forward. I replaced it and have never had another issue. I would imagine sand or mud in the wrong place could also cause it to stick. I think its much more likely to fix a problem than cause a problem all things considered though.

 

[mcb]

Potential downsides of the forward assist are IMO, weight (ounces are pounds, pounds are pain), added complexity (ie potential to cause a problem itself) and one more thing to snag on stuff while maneuvering. It's also heavily bias for the right hand user. It's also ugly compared to an upper without one, but there are no accounting for tastes.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I do enjoy the weight arguments.

Never seen anyone pick up an AR15 and complain about the extra weight of the forward assist.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Potential downsides of the forward assist are IMO, weight (ounces are pounds, pounds are pain), added complexity (ie potential to cause a problem itself) and one more thing to snag on stuff while maneuvering. It's also heavily bias for the right hand user. It's also ugly compared to an upper without one, but there are no accounting for tastes.

The rifles I generally use weigh around 10lbs. I'll not complain about a few ounces, especially when the ammo weighs less.

The complexity I understand.

The AR-15 wasn't designed to be a beautiful weapon. Had it been, it would have a wood stock.

 

[mcb]

I do enjoy the weight arguments.

Never seen anyone pick up an AR15 and complain about the extra weight of the forward assist.

Asks a soldier if they want to carry extra weight into combat. They go to fairly extreme ends to reduce their combat load. The forward assist may or may not be something they want to ditch but weight for a combat loadout is a huge factor for soldiers. They are forever overloaded.

"Ounces are pounds and pounds are pain" wasn't my phase, I learned it from some SOCOM guys I met at Ft Campbell showing me how they break down MRE's and other gear for long duration interdiction missions. The lengths those guys went to to reduce weight was pretty incredible.

 

[12Bravo20]

Asks a soldier if they want to carry extra weight into combat. They go to fairly extreme ends to reduce their combat load. The forward assist may or may not be something they want to ditch but weight for a combat loadout is a huge factor for soldiers. They are forever overloaded.

"Ounces are pounds and pounds are pain" wasn't my phase, I learned it from some SOCOM guys I met at Ft Campbell showing me how they break down MRE's and other gear for long duration interdiction missions. The lengths those guys went to to reduce weight was pretty incredible.

None of us worried about the extra weight of the forward assist when I was in. I was a glorified grunt with a shovel (combat engineer) that had to hoof it right along side the infantry grunts. And the majority of us had to use the forward assist a time or two. It is always better to have than not need.

For those that will never use their AR's in a hostile environment of any kind, you can choose to have or not have the forward assist. To each their own. For those of us that have used the M16/A1/A4/M4 or AR15 in hostile environments either have used the forward assist or like having the peace of mind having it.

And for those saying to just use your thumb on the bolt, that will work just fine for hunting situations. But that method will not work in a combat, training, or competition scenario where the bolt is hot.

I think this one can be put to bed after 5 pages worth. To each their own, ue what you want and don't worry about what others use.

 

[tark]

I don't have an AR. They lack soul and feel like BB guns, and I've never been attracted to them

but...

so I'm looking at full-length ARs with carry handles.

uhhhh... OK.

Whichever one I settle on, it will have a forward assist.

But you're not attracted to them... I (we) thought...

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

but...

uhhhh... OK.

But you're not attracted to them... I (we) thought...

I'm not. That doesn't mean I can't recognize a niche I have for one.

You, sir, seem to suffer from selective reading:

Still, I recognize their utilitarian use, and I could use a semi-auto that shoots intermediate rounds. The AR is generally more accurate than the AK from all I've read, so I'm looking at full-length ARs with carry handles.

 

[mcb]

{snip}

I think this one can be put to bed after 5 pages worth. To each their own, ue what you want and don't worry about what others use.

I said similar back on page 2,

{snip}

Each to his own, if you like it have at it, if you don't that's cool too you can do without it with practice.

and yet here we are...

 

[12Bravo20]

And just like I said on page 1 this topic can be very decisive and lead to arguments.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

And just like I said on page 1 this topic can be very decisive and lead to arguments.

Hey @12Bravo20 , 9mm or .45acp?

 

[Mk-211]

Beans or no beans in Chilli.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Beans or no beans in Chilli.

I really dislike beans. I'll tolerate them in chili, and baked.

But I prefer chili without beans.

Besides, beans add weight to the chili and are unnecessarily noisy.

 

[BreechFace]

Beans or no beans in Chilli.

Always have to have beans in chili!

How else is one to Dutch oven a little brother when you were kids?