Israel attacking Lebanon

[Lupinus]

Hezbollah Captures 2 Soldiers, Sparking Israeli Offensive Into Lebanon
Wednesday, July 12, 2006

BEIRUT, Lebanon — The Hezbollah militant group captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes along the Lebanese border on Wednesday, triggering an Israeli assault with warplanes, tanks and gunboats as Israeli troops crossed the frontier to hunt for the captives.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the guerrilla attack "an act of war" and warned Hezbollah would pay a "heavy price" for its actions.

Israeli warplanes struck two bridges over the Litani River deep in southern Lebanon, killing two civilians on the main north-south highway between the port cities of Tyre and Sidon, Lebanese security officials said. The pan-Arab satellite TV al-Arabiya station said that at least seven Israeli soldiers were killed in the fighting, and that several more were wounded.

The Israeli army confirmed casualties among the soldiers, but did not comment on the reports of possible deaths.

Israeli troops crossed into a southwestern sector of Lebanon, near where the soldiers were seized, trying to keep their captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli security officials said. Hezbollah said it destroyed an Israeli tank as it tried to cross the frontier.

The clashes came after Israel sharply escalated its military campaign in Gaza in an effort to press Palestinian militants to release another Israeli soldier who was captured during a raid across the Israel-Gaza border last month. Israel dropped a quarter-ton bomb on a Gaza home Wednesday in a failed attempt to assassinate top Hamas fugitives, killing seven children and two adults.

"These are difficult days for the state of Israel and its citizens," Olmert said. "There are people ... who are trying to test our resolve. They will fail and they will pay a heavy price for their actions."

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State David Welch, on a visit to Cairo, Egypt, said Wednesday's capture of the two Israeli soldiers was "a very dangerous escalation" that "puts at risk all the effort that's being put forth by many to find a solution to the current situation" involving the captured soldier in Gaza.

It was not known whether Hezbollah planned Wednesday's operation to snatch the two Israelis in coordination with Hamas. But one Hamas leader suggested the two groups would cooperate over their demands for a prisoner swap.

"We have proven to this enemy (Israel) that the one option is the release of Palestinian, Lebanese and Arab captives. All captives, without exception," Osama Hamdan, Hamas' spokesman in Lebanon, told Al-Jazeera television.

The military arm of the Shiite guerrilla group Hezbollah said in a statement that its fighters captured two Israeli soldiers "on the border with occupied Palestine, fulfilling the promise to liberate its prisoners" held by Israel. In a statement faxed to The Associated Press, the group said "the prisoners have been moved to a safe area."

Israel's Defense Ministry confirmed Israeli soldiers had been captured, saying the Lebanese government was responsible for their safety. The military, meanwhile, ordered residents of Israeli towns along the northern border to seek cover in underground bomb shelters.

Jubilant residents of south Beirut, a stronghold of Hezbollah, fired their guns in the air and set off firecrackers for more than an hour after the capture of the Israeli soldiers was announced.

In the main Palestinian refugee camp of Ein el-Hilweh in Sidon, southern Lebanon, Palestinians set off fireworks.

As Israeli aircraft struck roads, bridges and Hezbollah guerrilla positions in southern Lebanon, Lebanese army anti-aircraft opened fire at them, the Lebanese security officials said on conditions of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

The new capture of the soldiers opens a second front for Israel during its standoff with Hamas in Gaza. An Israeli offensive in Gaza since the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit on June 25 has killed at least 60 Palestinians, including the nine civilians killed Wednesday.

The nighttime aerial attack in Gaza was bound to intensify international criticism of Israel. The United Nations has already complained about what it said was disproportionate use of Israeli force in the Gaza operation.

The Israeli military said Mohammed Deif, the leader of the Hamas military wing and No. 1 on Israel's wanted list for more than a decade, was wounded in the airstrike, but it didn't know how badly. Hamas confirmed that Deif was targeted, but denied he was wounded.

Abu Obeideh, spokesman for Hamas' military wing, issued an unusually strong condemnation of the attack, using language employed only when Israel has assassinated top Hamas leaders. "We will make the leaders of the Zionist regime regret this Nazi crime," said part of his long statement.

Hamas-linked militants have demanded the release of at least some of the estimated 9,000 prisoners held by Israel in exchange for Shalit's freedom.

But Hamdan's comments suggested the group may toughen its stance after Hezbollah's grab of two more soldiers. He said there may be subsequent "coordination and an understanding" between the two groups.

Israel has carried out several prisoner swaps with Hezbollah in the past to obtain freedom for captures Israelis. These include a January 2004 swap in which an Israeli civilian and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers were exchanged for 436 Arab prisoners and the bodies of 59 Lebanese fighters. In 1985, three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon in 1982 were traded for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.

How long Israel will stay at it with Lebanon? Just how far they will push/how much damage they will do? If any other Arab nations will get involved? Thoughts? Ideas?

 

[shootinstudent]

This is quite ironic. Not too long ago (as in days), Israel bombed a Lebanese city in order to kill an Islamic militant living there. Was that "an act of war" that entitled Lebanese forces to retaliate against the IDF?

Now that Lebanese based militants attacked the IDF, that's definitely an act of war. If Israel doesn't want people to invade its territory and attack its army, it should respect other peoples' borders too.

I'm watching this unfold on the news. It's the same old story...Olmert has to prove that he's tough because he has no military credentials and because it's the only way to keep his extremists happy.

My predictions: No one else will get involved, Israel will spend lots of time destroying infrastructure in South Lebanon, and the Hizbullah will continue to launch rockets and make it very, very expensive for Israel to be there.

You can get better updates from middle eastern sources on this:

www.dailystar.com.lb for the Lebanese side

and

www.haaretz.com and www.jpost.com for the Israeli side.

 

[Lupinus]

student-
would you consider it right to attack a country harboring those who attack you? Just for example purposes, if Canada welcomed with open arms Al Queda as a base of operations to plan and launch attacks would you consider that an act of war? At the very least enough to retaliate agianst known safe houses? For an outright attack as we are seeing here? Israelies on the whole would like nothing better then to be left alone, but they wont stand to be attacked, and they shouldn't have to.

 

[shootinstudent]

Lupinus,

Israel invaded Lebanon in 78, and finally left in 2000. That is not what a country does when it "just wants to be left alone." Lebanon hardly even has an army, and Hizbullah grew into a fighting force because of the Israeli occupation there...not the other way around.

The Israelis have used disproportionate, heavy handed attacks to respond to any Palestinian nationalist activity whatsoever since 1967. That is why Israel is hated by the populations of every single one of its neighbors.

This is more of the same, and yes, I agree...nations have a right to defend themselves. That includes Lebanon and the Palestinians.

What is disingenuous about what's happening now is that it's cast as an Israeli response to aggression, but the fact is, Israel has been violating Lebanese sovereignty monthly for something like 30 years now...yet it responds in the press as if it is shocked that the Hizbullah paramilitary is attacking Israel.

If you don't want war, don't bomb your neighbors whenever you want for any reason at all. A lack of respect for sovereignty and borders is something that Israel has in common with its militant neighbors.

 

[Lupinus]

and which side is it that attack Israel first?

 

[shootinstudent]

Lupinus,

Israel. Most definitely. First strike in the 1967 war, and first strike ever since...usually with much heavier weapons and against more targets, too.

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

Student, how's the bait taste?

the "poor, disjointed groups of militant civilians" ARE purposely that way, to acheive exactly the mindset you've bought into. Totally state funded, but no uniforms, no participation in conventions, no rules, not officially acting per any M.O. They like it this way.

They stopped butting heads, army to army with Israel, because they cant compete, so they go the route of " poor, poor civilians, put upon by evil israel".

Hamas tried to get legit, while still being masked RPG shaking assclowns, and look what happened when they stopped being solely anonymous, murderous civlians... They're finished, all because they put on suits, and stood in the open, publically, and admitted that "yes, we kidnapped one kid, and killed another".

 

[shootinstudent]

just a dude,

You're right, that's how the battles have always been conducted. But it's not "an act", that's how it is...they are mostly loosley organized groups without serious state backing. Hizbullah is one of the more organized ones.

The countries that took on Israel, in the past, now have peace treaties with Israel...Lebanon and the Palestinians never had a real army that made war on Israel.

I don't see what mindset you think it is of mine these people have bought. My mindset is simple: Israel attacks its neighbors and crosses their borders whenever it wants. Therefore, it should not be surprised that its neighbors cross its borders and attack its troops on occasion.

Edit: I think I see more clearly what you're saying now. If you are implying that Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon are backing these people covertly...that is flat out wrong. The regimes of all four of those countries have tenuous holds on power that are threatened whenever there's a problem with Israel; flare-ups are more dangerous to them than they are to Israel, because their populations start to demand that they stop cooperating with Israel...and cooperation with Israel is very good for business. It earns favor with the United States and the international community, and that means more aid to keep otherwise failing regimes in power.

 

[utahminirevolver]

Shootinstudent

The world has more or less been under attack by jihadists for 14 centuries. They basically offer infidels the choice of the Book or the Sword (kind of like the Mafia's 'offer you can't refuse'). You seem to be advocating surrender and hence, dhimmitude or slavery.

Many patriotic Americans prefer the motto of the state of New Hampshire, Live Free Or Die.

 

[ilbob]

Israel suffers from the same problem we do when we are forced to deal with these low lifes. We are unwilling to just kill them in quantities high enough to discourage the rest of them, so we never really finish the job, or it just takes a lot longer than it otherwise would.

You have uncivilized barbarians versus a civilized modern state. The state has the weapons but the barbarians have plenty of civilians to hide behind.

 

[shootinstudent]

utahmini,

That is a cartoon history. FYI, Lebanon is about a quarter Christian, and like with the Palestinians, they're active in joining and even founding anti-Israel militias. (The PFLP is a good example...in its heyday it was even more bloody than Hamas, and it was founded by Christians.)

This is not a religious war.

 

[shootinstudent]

ilbob,

That's certainly how the Irgun type groups see things. As for me, I'm generally anti-genocide. It was a disgusting and inexcusable atrocity when it was done to Jews in Europe, and it would be equally criminal to do it to any other people for any reason.

This is why I get so worked up on these threads. The trend towards adopting all the hallmarks of the Nazi plan (minus Jews and plus Arabs/Muslims/non-english speaking middle easterners) is frightening to me.

I really can't believe my eyes when I see Americans saying these things.

 

[jondar]

ilbob - you have revealed the truth in just four sentences. As the old saying goes, "you cant win a war passing out candy." When will we ever learn this?I think it is Political Correctness run amuck.

 

[Henry Bowman]

The Israelis have used disproportionate, heavy handed attacks to respond to any Palestinian nationalist activity whatsoever since 1967.

And yet these morons don't get it and keep asking for more punishment. ilbob is right.

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

The governing body of the nation of Israel does not allow, or sanction it's citizens to cross checkpoints to kill arabs. but...

Lebanon, Syria, Gaza and west bank are areas that DO ABSOLUTELY ALLOW and SANCTION "out of uniform" citizens, (or their munitions), to cross borders for the sole purpose kill the civilians of another nation.

Going after the IDFspecifically, while not new, is a recent tactic.

Oh, and this is absolutely a religious war... Hamas, Fatah, Hezb'allah, al Aqsa, et-al while comprised of kids and men that may not be zealots, they are funded, and were STARTED by zealots in Syria, Lebanon, and Iran,
who actually define the word zealot....

 

[shootinstudent]

henry,

And yet these morons don't get it and keep asking for more punishment. ilbob is right.

Killing people doesn't make their relatives/friends/countrymen less angry. That's true for us too...did you stop on September 11th and say: "Hey, we better do whatever Osama says, because we're tired of terrorism"?

Why would you expect anyone else to respond to military strikes like that?

just_a_dude,

Israel has been crossing into Lebanon and the Palestinian terroritories regularly, dropping bombs to kill people (and killing civilians in the process.) They killed about 20 thousand civilians in the Lebanese invasion, and about 4000 Palestinian civilians during the last intifada.

As for whether or not this is a religious war, please explain why you think it is that Christians participate in militant groups and have founded some of the most brutal ones.

Islamic militants do participate in the conflict, but it is not at root a religious one...Christians and Muslims both are fighting the Israelis. It is over land and sovereignty, not religion.

Note: Fatah and its associated Al Aqsa brigade are not religious groups. That's part of their longstanding conflict with Hamas.

 

[Erebus]

The trend towards adopting all the hallmarks of the Nazi plan (minus Jews and plus Arabs/Muslims/non-english speaking middle easterners) is frightening to me.

There is a huge diffrence between extermination and killing them until they cannot attack you anymore.

We bombed Germany to destroy the facilities and kill the workers producing their munitions.

We nuked Japan because the lives lost to invade and destroy their war machine was determined to be way higher than nuking them.

We never made any kind of attempt or held any intention of exterminating the Japanese or the German people or eliminating their countries.

The people Isreal is up against fully intend to exterminate the Jewish people and eliminate the state of Isreal. And you are a fool if you believe any propoganda that says otherwise.

 

[shootinstudent]

Erebus,

The people Isreal is up against fully intend to exterminate the Jewish people and eliminate the state of Isreal. And you are a fool if you believe any propoganda that says otherwise.

Is that why Christians fight too? To kill all the Jews?

This is silly, and that you would call me a fool for denying it is ridiculous. Iran, the only theocracy in the region and an extreme human rights violator, protects Jews by constitutional order. The Palestinian Charter includes Jews specifically. It is flat out unsubstantiated to say that this is about killing all Jews.

Not only is this not a war to exterminate Jews, it's not even remotely possible for anyone to actually destroy Israel, so that's a non-issue.

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

Any non religious people, or christians participating in the militia activities
are being funded by religious zealots, because the zealots use them to
achieve the common goal.

Iran issues, but wont honor passports for any of it's 30,000 jewish residents.
"Protects" is a silly word for restricting the travel, and area of residence for Jews in Iran

 

[shootinstudent]

just_a_dude,

Huh? You mean like George Habash who FOUNDED the PFLP? The DFLP leadership was Christian too...what are you talking about?

There were Christian militants in Palestine before Hezbollah and Hamas even existed. Where are you getting this?

And again, why on earth do the Christians participate in this evil plot? What exactly do they have to gain?

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

The PFLP and DFLP have been marginalized. WHY? because support and backing from islamic whackjobs did not exist for them. WHY? because they were generally Marxists and wanted coexistance between jews and Arabs.

IE, not what the zealots (in Iran, et al) wanted.

The money and guns (from islamic fundimentalists, Sunni and Shia alike) run the show, not little groups of men (stooges) on the ground.

As I said, anyone who is not a zealot themselves, is a stooge being told that they are fighting for "home and family", when they wouldn't have to, if they weren't launchine rockets, and blowing them selves up in israeli hotels and pizza places.

Note: Fatah and its associated Al Aqsa brigade are not religious groups. That's part of their longstanding conflict with Hamas.

I'm sorry, chief, but Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is as religious as you can get. It is named after the Al Aqsa mosqe.

 

[shootinstudent]

just_a_dude,

wait, so you're arguing that the architects of numerous airplane hijackings and the assassination of an Israeli minister "just wanted peace"?

Regardless of whether or not you think that makes sense, the point is made: there are Palestinian Christians fighting in this same war, and they've been doing it just as long as every other group (and longer than the religious nuts of today.)

Again, while it is true that religious groups play a big role in the fight today, the fight is not at root a religious one. If it were, there would be no Christian founded or marxist organizations to speak of...what interest would they have if this is just about religion?

Can you explain that please? Why do you think it is these Palestinian Christiasn were attacking Israel in the first place?

 

[Telperion]

Iran, the only theocracy in the region and an extreme human rights violator, protects Jews by constitutional order.

By protect, do you include the following?
- Requiring university applicants to pass a Islamic theology test, regardless of their own faith
- Denying multiple-exit visas to Jewish families (must have taken that from the USSR playbook)
- Preventing Jews from serving as judges or other government posts
(source: State Department)

Do you also believe the USSR protected its religous population when it wrote the following in its Constitution? Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

 

[shootinstudent]

Telperion,

Yes, I do mean protect. Iran is an oppressive, backwards country...it treats Muslim Iranians like that too. And whatever else you can say, Jews are in fact free to practice their religion in Iran.

The point was that it and other muslim groups aren't interested in exterminating all the Jews; they'd have done that long ago in Iran if that's what they wanted. And on top of that, they have constitutional recognition and a Jewish member of Iran's parliament...not exactly proof of a plot to exterminate Jews, is it?

 

[Erebus]

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

Ahmadinejad http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm

Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy’s

to a single inch.
​

al-Zahar - Leader of Hamas http://inbrief.threatswatch.org/2006/02/palestine-from-the-river-to-th/

And what does Christians being involved got to do with Islamists trying to destroy Israel?​