Malum Prohibitum
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Art, your history recap is the only post on this thread that lines up with what I know of the history of those two wars.
Israel attacking Lebanon
- Thread starter Lupinus
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
One of the ways I got old was by being observant, paying attention and having a reasonably good memory.
Sorta paraphrasing a respected gentleman, "I may not have been there, but I was around, watching."
, Art
Sorta paraphrasing a respected gentleman, "I may not have been there, but I was around, watching."
, Artshootinstudent
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Thanks for pointing out the nature of the personal comments on this thread, Iain.
First off, I don't take any of the "you're smoking something" or similar comments personally. I realize that my views are unpopular in America, and I expect and am fine with people getting angry about it. I feel much better when I speak with my Israeli friends on the subject and find that they're usually more in accord with my view than those on this thread. Indeed, the United States and Likud party meetings are the only places on the planet where the discourse is so adamantly in favor of Likud policy.
Getting past that, I'm going to try and draw out the main points on the thread to make my position more clear. For starters, I do not believe any attacks on Israeli citizens are justified, and I say what I do because Israeli military policy is as bad for Israeli citizens as it is for Palestinians and all of Israel's other neighbors. Heavy handed attacks over 40 years have done nothing but make most Israelis much less safe, and more subject to being called to fight or experiencing terrorism, all for the benefit of a small group of radicals within Israel.
Here are the main arguments in support of the Likud (now Kadima) doctrine:
1. Israel's attacks are only defensive, and designed to increase security.
My response: This might be believable if all Israel ever did was destroy military capabilities and then leave. Instead, the day after the 67 war, Israel started building settlements, and continues to do so up to today...how does building hundreds of thousands of settlements for Jews only make Israel safer? You can bomb and strafe terrorists without building camps for civilians right in the middle of their neighborhoods.
The policy there isn't about safety. It's about expanding Israel, a stated goal of the Likud party that comes from its Irgun roots of the 1940's. It's certainly not a policy that Americans should feel obliged to support, since it adds zero to Israeli safety and actually damages our relationship with oil producing states.
2. Israel only attacks military targets, while the terrorists attack civilians.
This too is tough to believe, considering the numbers. The main difference is that terrorists admit they're after civilians; Israel's military says "targeted strike" even in cases where an attack on civilians was the obvious purpose. The numbers bear this out:
Lebanon war (a hugely unpopular war sold by lies to the Israeli parliament): About 20,000 Lebanese/ Palestinian civilians ended up dead. About 700 Israeli soldiers died.
Palestinian wars: About 4,000 dead. About 600 Israeli civilians killed by terrorists.
If Israel is only targeting terrorists, its weapons must have some serious guidance issues.
3. All Muslims/Arabs whoever just want to kill all Jews
Again, I point out the fact that Christians and secularists participate in these wars, and the responses I get are all personal or a citation to some radical Islamist group.
Yes, there are radical groups that want to destroy Israel. However, these groups do not generally claim that all Jews must be killed, as evidenced by the fact that countries ruled by said groups have Jewish populations that are relatively well treated and respected in their religious freedoms.
On top of that, blaming religious hatred doesn't explain why Christians and secularists are fighting Israel also.
I'd like someone to actually present facts to dispute the above, instead of one line personal attacks or expressions of outrage that I would dare criticize a foreign government, or imply that maybe said government doesn't really do what's best for its own citizens.
First off, I don't take any of the "you're smoking something" or similar comments personally. I realize that my views are unpopular in America, and I expect and am fine with people getting angry about it. I feel much better when I speak with my Israeli friends on the subject and find that they're usually more in accord with my view than those on this thread. Indeed, the United States and Likud party meetings are the only places on the planet where the discourse is so adamantly in favor of Likud policy.
Getting past that, I'm going to try and draw out the main points on the thread to make my position more clear. For starters, I do not believe any attacks on Israeli citizens are justified, and I say what I do because Israeli military policy is as bad for Israeli citizens as it is for Palestinians and all of Israel's other neighbors. Heavy handed attacks over 40 years have done nothing but make most Israelis much less safe, and more subject to being called to fight or experiencing terrorism, all for the benefit of a small group of radicals within Israel.
Here are the main arguments in support of the Likud (now Kadima) doctrine:
1. Israel's attacks are only defensive, and designed to increase security.
My response: This might be believable if all Israel ever did was destroy military capabilities and then leave. Instead, the day after the 67 war, Israel started building settlements, and continues to do so up to today...how does building hundreds of thousands of settlements for Jews only make Israel safer? You can bomb and strafe terrorists without building camps for civilians right in the middle of their neighborhoods.
The policy there isn't about safety. It's about expanding Israel, a stated goal of the Likud party that comes from its Irgun roots of the 1940's. It's certainly not a policy that Americans should feel obliged to support, since it adds zero to Israeli safety and actually damages our relationship with oil producing states.
2. Israel only attacks military targets, while the terrorists attack civilians.
This too is tough to believe, considering the numbers. The main difference is that terrorists admit they're after civilians; Israel's military says "targeted strike" even in cases where an attack on civilians was the obvious purpose. The numbers bear this out:
Lebanon war (a hugely unpopular war sold by lies to the Israeli parliament): About 20,000 Lebanese/ Palestinian civilians ended up dead. About 700 Israeli soldiers died.
Palestinian wars: About 4,000 dead. About 600 Israeli civilians killed by terrorists.
If Israel is only targeting terrorists, its weapons must have some serious guidance issues.
3. All Muslims/Arabs whoever just want to kill all Jews
Again, I point out the fact that Christians and secularists participate in these wars, and the responses I get are all personal or a citation to some radical Islamist group.
Yes, there are radical groups that want to destroy Israel. However, these groups do not generally claim that all Jews must be killed, as evidenced by the fact that countries ruled by said groups have Jewish populations that are relatively well treated and respected in their religious freedoms.
On top of that, blaming religious hatred doesn't explain why Christians and secularists are fighting Israel also.
I'd like someone to actually present facts to dispute the above, instead of one line personal attacks or expressions of outrage that I would dare criticize a foreign government, or imply that maybe said government doesn't really do what's best for its own citizens.
gc70
Member
This is the quandry faced by Israel (and other nations). Terrorists do not have clearly marked camps or clearly identifiable uniforms. Terrorists are just part of the population who sneak out periodically to make war and then blend back into the population.
Unless the country being attacked is fairly lucky, there are not a lot of straight-up fights with terrorists. So who do you fight? Intelligence tries to identify the terrorists and the military goes after them. Of course, the population from which the terrorists operate deny that the terrorists exist, so it is always 'civilians' that are killed. And innocent civilians are undoubtedly killed in anti-terrorist operations because the terrorists actively hide among the civilian population. The results are not pretty, but they are driven by the actions of the terrorists themselves.
shootinstudent
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gc70,
I agree with your call on the broader issue, but there are counter considerations...the terrorists are well aware that attacks on civilians will come from what they do. They invite that, because they know it will increase support for their cause and increase hatred of the Israelis. Israel should take into account with its operations that there are costs in increased future terrorism as a result of its attacks. Why give the terrorists something they fully invite?
Also, there have been many, many strikes where the civilian impact was so needlessly high that it just doesn't wash to claim it was only about terror. How did bombing Gaza's powerplant stop terrorism? How does using a 500lb bomb on one man kill him any more dead than other means?
And what exactly does generating a constant stream of sonic booms over whole neighborhoods accomplish against terrorists?
Israel has a right to and should defend itself. My point is that the policies the Israeli government has engaged in so far do not actually make Israel safer, and that they're often designed to achieve purposes besides safety for Israeli citizens.
I agree with your call on the broader issue, but there are counter considerations...the terrorists are well aware that attacks on civilians will come from what they do. They invite that, because they know it will increase support for their cause and increase hatred of the Israelis. Israel should take into account with its operations that there are costs in increased future terrorism as a result of its attacks. Why give the terrorists something they fully invite?
Also, there have been many, many strikes where the civilian impact was so needlessly high that it just doesn't wash to claim it was only about terror. How did bombing Gaza's powerplant stop terrorism? How does using a 500lb bomb on one man kill him any more dead than other means?
And what exactly does generating a constant stream of sonic booms over whole neighborhoods accomplish against terrorists?
Israel has a right to and should defend itself. My point is that the policies the Israeli government has engaged in so far do not actually make Israel safer, and that they're often designed to achieve purposes besides safety for Israeli citizens.
Dannyboy
Member
Which Christian groups might that be? The Phalange (a Christian militia) was firmly allied with Israel during the war in Lebanon. They were the ones that committed the massacres in the 2 refugee camps. I haven't seen anything about other Christian groups fighting the Israelis. Considering the state of the country after Syria pretty much took over, the Christians weren't really too worried about Israel. They had more important problems in the Lebanese Muslim population.
shootinstudent
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Dannyboy,
I am talking mainly about George Habash and the notoriously radical PFLP in the Palestine zones, not in Lebanon. Edward Said is another notable Palestinian Christian, and he chose the right way to speak his mind (ie, not with bombs). All the major middle eastern Churches condemn Israel, including the Copts in Egypt.
The Phalange certainly earned part of the hatred for Israel in Lebanon with massacres (watched by Ariel Sharon, a fact he later lost his job as defense minister over) like those at Shabra and Chatila.
You will find in the middle east every single kind of group, secular and religious, opposed to Israel. Even groups that hate each other. That's a very good sign that there is more to the conflict than just muslims hating Jews.
I am talking mainly about George Habash and the notoriously radical PFLP in the Palestine zones, not in Lebanon. Edward Said is another notable Palestinian Christian, and he chose the right way to speak his mind (ie, not with bombs). All the major middle eastern Churches condemn Israel, including the Copts in Egypt.
The Phalange certainly earned part of the hatred for Israel in Lebanon with massacres (watched by Ariel Sharon, a fact he later lost his job as defense minister over) like those at Shabra and Chatila.
You will find in the middle east every single kind of group, secular and religious, opposed to Israel. Even groups that hate each other. That's a very good sign that there is more to the conflict than just muslims hating Jews.
ezypikns
Member
If The Palestinians Devoted as Much Time to Nation Building...
as they did to fomenting and teaching hatred and violence, they would be as great a nation as Israel.
as they did to fomenting and teaching hatred and violence, they would be as great a nation as Israel.
Lupinus
Member
really? I have five friends who live in Israel currently, two who used to live there, and a number more I know and have had discussions with. Guess what every one of them thinks to more or lesser degrees? I will give you a hint, it isn't your view and the ones all your so called Israeli friends think.
To a large extent this is true. Blow up a coffee shop or bus? Get bombed back. Plan attacks? Bomb. Be a terrorist and show yourself in public? Just might get bombed. Ever heard the term the best defence is a good offence? Sometimes in order to defend yourself you need to strike first.
That is generaly what happens with captured territory after the war is over, you build settelments. Should it sit and rot? Oh right, they should have just handed it back? To the people who just tried to kill them so they can stage in it yet agian? As for still doing it up to this day were you watching the news a few months back? Israeli troops going and forcing their own people out of their homes in an attempt to give a little in the hopes of peace?
It is called collateral damage all wars have it. Suck? Sure does, but that doesn't make it less real. Don't blame those striking a target, blame the target who deliberatly plants himself in the middle of the collateral damage to create as much of it as possible.
rock jock
Member
student,
Why do you keep pointing to Christian Palestinians, who comprise probably less than 1% of the total ME population of thugs allied against Israel, as evidence that "this is not a religious war." In this case, the exception most definitely proves the rule.
Regarding Israel's supposed targeting of civlians, their enemies are the same type of human waste that are currently hiding in Mosques and hospitals in Iraq. They hide within civilian populations, knowing that they will be attacked, resulting in loss of life to non-combatants, and therefore chalking up another mark in the "us poor defenseless Arabs" cause.
Why do you keep pointing to Christian Palestinians, who comprise probably less than 1% of the total ME population of thugs allied against Israel, as evidence that "this is not a religious war." In this case, the exception most definitely proves the rule.
Regarding Israel's supposed targeting of civlians, their enemies are the same type of human waste that are currently hiding in Mosques and hospitals in Iraq. They hide within civilian populations, knowing that they will be attacked, resulting in loss of life to non-combatants, and therefore chalking up another mark in the "us poor defenseless Arabs" cause.
Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
Member
Finally, Olmert states that an act such as Hezbollah's raid, in which a terror group comes from another territory or nation to commit violence, That group's host nation will be the "recipient of war".
It's got a nice ring to it.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/12/D8IQPH280.html
And, Student... nobody cares about George Habash, and everyone knows that the martyrs of AL Aqsa Mosque are religious zealots.
It's got a nice ring to it.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/12/D8IQPH280.html
And, Student... nobody cares about George Habash, and everyone knows that the martyrs of AL Aqsa Mosque are religious zealots.
shootinstudent
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rock jock,
They're more like 10 percent of the Palestinian population, and the point is that they virtually all oppose Israel. If the only reason to oppose Israel is muslim religious hatred for Jews, then the near universal opposition to Israeli policy by middle eastern Churches is completely inexplicable.
As for where they hide, were there terrorists hiding out at the Gaza powerplant? How about Beirut Int'l's runway?
just_a_dude: yep, it has a nice ring especially to Hezbollah and like minded groups...they do not care how many of their members die, as long as they get a chance to attack Israeli soldiers.
The real losers are the civilians, who are going to have their infrastructure "taken back 20 years" according to the IDF chief of staff. Terrorists don't need or care about public works and highways, and destroying such things will only swell the ranks of militant groups.
That's how Hezbollah got started, in response to the 1982 invasion. There is no reason to suspect that this invasion will do anything other than make Hezbollah larger and more popular.
They're more like 10 percent of the Palestinian population, and the point is that they virtually all oppose Israel. If the only reason to oppose Israel is muslim religious hatred for Jews, then the near universal opposition to Israeli policy by middle eastern Churches is completely inexplicable.
As for where they hide, were there terrorists hiding out at the Gaza powerplant? How about Beirut Int'l's runway?
just_a_dude: yep, it has a nice ring especially to Hezbollah and like minded groups...they do not care how many of their members die, as long as they get a chance to attack Israeli soldiers.
The real losers are the civilians, who are going to have their infrastructure "taken back 20 years" according to the IDF chief of staff. Terrorists don't need or care about public works and highways, and destroying such things will only swell the ranks of militant groups.
That's how Hezbollah got started, in response to the 1982 invasion. There is no reason to suspect that this invasion will do anything other than make Hezbollah larger and more popular.
Maybe the Palestenian and Lebonese people need to get rid of their terrorists Hamas and Hezbollah and maybe they would not have to pay the price for their terrorism.. I think that is what I would do after all this time wasted. Kill the monster that is causing your pain. Oh but I forget it is Israel and the US that is the Big and Little Satan. Yea that is the ticket. NO wonder you have a problem if you listened to Said very much. Christian my rear end.
Looks like things are really heating up.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The big problem for Israel is that since 1948, various Arab factions have never quit in the desire to eradicate the Jews from "Arab" lands. Slap down one faction and another springs up. One thing for which there is no shortage is rabble-rousers in the Arab world. Only the group's name and the source of funding changes.
All this right/wrong argument is irrelevant. There will always be some group within the Arab world which will seek to end Israel's existence, with genocide to follow. It matters not one iota what Israel does to achieve some sort of peaceful existence. Nothing at all that has been tried in the past has been at all effective, no matter who has signed what accords.
The Israelis and the Palestinians could all sit down together and trade Shaloms and Salaams and go to neck-hugging and loving one another. Shucks, go to harmony on Kumbayah. So? Somebody'd go to shooting rockets or setting off IEDs the next day, shouting, "Praise be to the Ayatollah and Allah!".
You should pardon my cynicism, already.
Art
All this right/wrong argument is irrelevant. There will always be some group within the Arab world which will seek to end Israel's existence, with genocide to follow. It matters not one iota what Israel does to achieve some sort of peaceful existence. Nothing at all that has been tried in the past has been at all effective, no matter who has signed what accords.
The Israelis and the Palestinians could all sit down together and trade Shaloms and Salaams and go to neck-hugging and loving one another. Shucks, go to harmony on Kumbayah. So? Somebody'd go to shooting rockets or setting off IEDs the next day, shouting, "Praise be to the Ayatollah and Allah!".
You should pardon my cynicism, already.
Art
rev214
Member
Yuck...its that tree-huggin' hippie crap again...
I heard last night that every Israeli serves in the military between 18-21...
The country as a whole takes it very personally when even 1 person becomes a POW...
I admire their determination in getting their POW's back, or avenging them...
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The christians in the muslim world know they are on the short end of the stick. They know if they don't condemn Israel, they will be persecuted and attacked.
There have been a great number of attacks on Christian churchs and people in Egypt. One or two of them made the news. Turkey has seen some of that violence as well recently.
It is obvious to me that if the Jews were all gone tomorrow, the radical Muslims would not stop hating or committing terrorism, they would just change targets.
Also, I'll believe the Arab muslims really want peace when they stop teach hatred toward Jews in their text books and schools.
So let's see some alternatives...
...to what Israel has done, from those that disapprove of Israel's actions during this latest crisis.
Scenario #1:
Terrorists kidnap soldiers of your army, what do you do?
Scenario #2:
Terrorists launch rockets into one of your major cities, how do you respond?
Scenario #3:
The President of another country vows to wipe your country off the map. Should you be concerned?
...to what Israel has done, from those that disapprove of Israel's actions during this latest crisis.
Scenario #1:
Terrorists kidnap soldiers of your army, what do you do?
Scenario #2:
Terrorists launch rockets into one of your major cities, how do you respond?
Scenario #3:
The President of another country vows to wipe your country off the map. Should you be concerned?
JJpdxpinkpistols
Member
They are called Dhimmi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
and they pay a tax to live in a Muslim society, the Jizya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
And yes, they would be at the short end of the stick...if they were caught supporting someone opposed to their protector, they would be stripped of their protection, and could be openly slaughtered (according to Shari'a law).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
and they pay a tax to live in a Muslim society, the Jizya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
And yes, they would be at the short end of the stick...if they were caught supporting someone opposed to their protector, they would be stripped of their protection, and could be openly slaughtered (according to Shari'a law).
Art has it pegged.
The solution is for the factions of the Arab and Islamic populace to recognize Israel has a right to exist and simply cease the cross border attacks and terrorism.
Apologists for the terrorists are rather despicable in my view. Stop such attacks and the West Bank and Gaza would be a Palestinian state rather quickly.
Instead, the drum beat of hate and the destruction of Israel diverts these people from developing a decent life. It's that damn simple. Of course, apologists for the failure to see that are, at their core, still mired in hatred.
Then, if they are struck back - they whine about it. In 1956 and 1967, Egypt blockaded Israel's access to the Red Sea and proclaimed it would destroy Israel. The apologists forget that and then whine because they got beat.
Israel told Jordan they would not attack the West Bank except if they were attacked. Nasser told Hussein they were winning and suckered him into attacking and thus the West Bank was lost. Sigh - it's a shame when you don't know history or only your own dishonest version of it.
But the past is the past - stop the terrorist attacks and acknowledge the right to exist. Can that culture get beyond this? The ball is really in their court but they won't, they would rather hate.
The solution is for the factions of the Arab and Islamic populace to recognize Israel has a right to exist and simply cease the cross border attacks and terrorism.
Apologists for the terrorists are rather despicable in my view. Stop such attacks and the West Bank and Gaza would be a Palestinian state rather quickly.
Instead, the drum beat of hate and the destruction of Israel diverts these people from developing a decent life. It's that damn simple. Of course, apologists for the failure to see that are, at their core, still mired in hatred.
Then, if they are struck back - they whine about it. In 1956 and 1967, Egypt blockaded Israel's access to the Red Sea and proclaimed it would destroy Israel. The apologists forget that and then whine because they got beat.
Israel told Jordan they would not attack the West Bank except if they were attacked. Nasser told Hussein they were winning and suckered him into attacking and thus the West Bank was lost. Sigh - it's a shame when you don't know history or only your own dishonest version of it.
But the past is the past - stop the terrorist attacks and acknowledge the right to exist. Can that culture get beyond this? The ball is really in their court but they won't, they would rather hate.
Rezin
Member
Israel has some definate might, and I am sure they think we have their back if some heavy fighting happens.
But that area is FILLED with hatred. It's very volitile, and I think that this is prelude to something rather large. Those in charge spent their lifetimes hating the other factions. Brought up and rasied to wage war agaist their enemies....
And personally, I think that some of these countries WANT to pop a nuke. They like to make points. THAT would be the largest point made since 1945. I think that type of martyrdom and fanatacism will allow that scenario to occur.
I saw one quote where an Iranian (I think) Diplomat of some sort said something about "Very large explosions are coming"
Do they want global war? Perhaps.... Is it coming? My magic 8ball says yes....
But that area is FILLED with hatred. It's very volitile, and I think that this is prelude to something rather large. Those in charge spent their lifetimes hating the other factions. Brought up and rasied to wage war agaist their enemies....
And personally, I think that some of these countries WANT to pop a nuke. They like to make points. THAT would be the largest point made since 1945. I think that type of martyrdom and fanatacism will allow that scenario to occur.
I saw one quote where an Iranian (I think) Diplomat of some sort said something about "Very large explosions are coming"
Do they want global war? Perhaps.... Is it coming? My magic 8ball says yes....
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