J Frame Spring Questions

[Pat Riot]

Howdy,
Last week I discovered that my ever reliable S&W 442 needed some work. I started getting light primer strikes 1 or 2 times with every cylinder of ammo I fired. The ammo had CCI. primers, but it had never had a problem with them before and I refuse to load ammo to match a light hammer spring. If it won’t fire all primers the gun is unreliable to me.

Anyway, I did a little research and bought a Wilson Combat hammer and rebound spring set.
The hammer spring is 8#. Factory hammer springs are reported to be 8.5#
There are 3 rebound springs. 13#, 14# & 15#. Supposedly the factory rebound spring is 18# according to Wolff.

My question is this:
Which rebound spring SHOULD be the best of the 3 for a 442?

Thank you

 

[lee n. field]

Why would putting a lighter than factory hammer spring help light strike problems?

 

[Pat Riot]

Why would putting a lighter than factory hammer spring help light strike problems?

Have you ever fired a brand new J frame DA only revolver and hit your target with consistent accuracy? It took a long time to break that puppy in. I bought it in 97. It took me months to shoot it well. I don’t want to take months to get it right again.

 

[edwardware]

I would strongly advise against a reduced power mainspring in a social revolver. In my experience, fixing a local gunscmidt's work, it's a sure recipe for inconsistent ignition.

Use the full power spring when you really want a bang every time.

 

[Pat Riot]

Gents, I appreciate the concern. What I am looking for is a recommendation on the rebound spring tension. I do have an understanding of hammer and mainsprings. If the 8# is too light I will change it.
Thanks very much.

 

[wcwhitey]

Gents, I appreciate the concern. What I am looking for is a recommendation on the rebound spring tension. I do have an understanding of hammer and mainsprings. If the 8# is too light I will change it.
Thanks very much.

Pat, sorry not about springs. But, if they are newly bought CCI primers that may be the culprit. I just started loading with a recently acquired new batch. 3 out of 50 with my tuned Model 66 had fail to fire. Never, even with SRP’s did this happen before. Just throwing it out there before you dig into that gun.

 

[Rodfac]

Pat, I've got to agree with WcW...I've got a cpl of bricks of CCI SPP that are noticeably harder to ignite than my usual Winchesters. I've never had a light primer strike prior to their use. One of my guns, a M-66 Smith with standard factory springs was affected.

Just saying...it may be the primers...or the way they're seated...as you undoubtedly know, they've got to be fully seated in the pocket or some of the hammer's striking force is used to seat them deeper.

Just MHO, Rod

 

[Pat Riot]

Pat, sorry not about springs. But, if they are newly bought CCI primers that may be the culprit. I just started loading with a recently acquired new batch. 3 out of 50 with my tuned Model 66 had fail to fire. Never, even with SRP’s did this happen before. Just throwing it out there before you dig into that gun.

Hmmm…these are new primers. Well, pretty new. Got them in December. I have loaded and fired 300 rounds out of this batch in my other revolvers.

 

[Pat Riot]

Pat, I've got to agree with WcW...I've got a cpl of bricks of CCI SPP that are noticeably harder to ignite than my usual Winchesters. I've never had a light primer strike prior to their use. One of my guns, a M-66 Smith with standard factory springs was affected.

Just saying...it may be the primers...or the way they're seated...as you undoubtedly know, they've got to be fully seated in the pocket or some of the hammer's striking force is used to seat them deeper.

Just MHO, Rod

Maybe I will try loading some .38s with CCI, S&B and some Federal primers and fire them with the 442, my 36 and my Colt DS and see how things go. I was thinking about it and the 300 rounds I fired were all with my bigger guns. Except for the 30 or so rounds I fired in the 442.
Thanks @Rodfac and @wcwhitey

 

[9mmepiphany]

There are 3 rebound springs. 13#, 14# & 15#. Supposedly the factory rebound spring is 18# according to Wolff.

My question is this:
Which rebound spring SHOULD be the best of the 3 for a 442?

The reason they offer 3 rebound springs is to let you balance it with the main spring. The different weight take into account varying “resistance” in the action.

The common way to determine the correct weight to use is to install the lightest and work the action (dryfire) to see if the trigger return is sluggish. If it is, install a heavier spring until it isn’t. I think you’ll end up with the 14lb spring installed…but that’s just a guess.

Since you’re in there anyway, you might consider also installing the Apex Tactical Specialties Extended Firing Pin Kit for the J-frame

 

[edwardware]

. . . a recommendation on the rebound spring tension.

You always want the lightest possible rebound spring, since it's directly adding pull weight. . . but it needs to rebound the trigger faster than your finger can turn around. A light spring is slower to reset, and won't push your finger. You will likely never notice the delay unless your name is Jerry; you might have developed the habit of riding the trigger on rebound, in which case a lighter rebound will cause you to shortstroke.

Again, in my hands, this is a gun meant for serious work under stress; another 5 ounces of smooth pull is fine if it adds reliability.

 

[Pat Riot]

The reason they offer 3 rebound springs is to let you balance it with the main spring. The different weight take into account varying “resistance” in the action.

The common way to determine the correct weight to use is to install the lightest and work the action (dryfire) to see if the trigger return is sluggish. If it is, install a heavier spring until it isn’t. I think you’ll end up with the 14lb spring installed…but that’s just a guess.

Since you’re in there anyway, you might consider also installing the Apex Tactical Specialties Extended Firing Pin Kit for the J-frame

Thank you. You validated what I thought regarding the rebound spring.
It’s amazing how many places you can read what springs people have installed, but not “why” they installed the spring that they did.
I looked at that Apex Firing Pin Kit and wondered if perhaps my firing pin might be the culprit or if maybe the spring might be defective. I have a set of factory J frame springs that I bought about 4 years ago, “just in case…”. I considered pulling the firing pin and replacing that spring, since I had it out.
I do not know the factory dimensions of the firing pin to see if wear is playing a part in my misfires. I have no idea how many hundreds or even thousands of rounds I have fired through this 442.

 

[Pat Riot]

You always want the lightest possible rebound spring, since it's directly adding pull weight. . . but it needs to rebound the trigger faster than your finger can turn around. A light spring is slower to reset, and won't push your finger. You will likely never notice the delay unless your name is Jerry; you might have developed the habit of riding the trigger on rebound, in which case a lighter rebound will cause you to shortstroke.

Again, in my hands, this is a gun meant for serious work under stress; another 5 ounces of smooth pull is fine if it adds reliability.

Thank you. I have been considering what you and @lee n. field said about the factory vs lighter springs.
This is my favorite CCW revolver. When I leave CA this summer I will be applying for my CCW again in PA. I have been in CA these past 3 years doing a job. I didn’t want to bother with their idiot CCW requirements (another subject for another time)

I had forgotten I had the set of factory springs that I have for J frames. After telling @wcwhitey I may play around with trying different primers I decided I might just install a factory hammer spring and just perhaps tinker with the rebound spring. I should have a factory one of those as well.

I would sure hate my last thought to be “Damnit! I should have listened to @lee n. field and @edwardware ”

 

[9mmepiphany]

I replaced the firing pin because it was so easy since I already had the action open…and I have a lot of faith in the products the Randy and Scott offer (co-owner of Apex)

A worn firing pin spring wouldn’t contribute to light strikes as all it does is push the firing pin back from contact with the primer.

I carried a 642 for years before I replaced it with a Kahr CW9. Mine had been tuned to almost feel as good as a Colt “D” frame, and yet was reliable with any ammo I fed it for years. I’m currently in Irvine and if I had brought the 642 with me would be happy to compare it with yours

 

[9mmepiphany]

You always want the lightest possible rebound spring, since it's directly adding pull weight. . . but it needs to rebound the trigger faster than your finger can turn around. A light spring is slower to reset, and won't push your finger. You will likely never notice the delay unless your name is Jerry; you might have developed the habit of riding the trigger on rebound, in which case a lighter rebound will cause you to shortstroke.

Interestingly, Jerry uses an extra strength rebound spring in his competition revolvers.

I remember handling a Ruger GP-100, at a match, that had an unbelievably light D/A that was still reliably setting off primers…but the trigger return was so slow that I could have gotten at least another shot off in the lag time.

I’ve outrun a trigger a couple of times as I was concentrating on just keeping my trigger finger in motion

 

[Pat Riot]

A worn firing pin spring wouldn’t contribute to light strikes as all it does is push the firing pin back from contact with the primer.

I was thinking perhaps a broken spring impeding the firing pin.


I just found out I may need to work this weekend so I may not get to my 442 until much later.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Pat, good advice already given.
First, primers. Never had trouble with Small Pistol Primers CCIs, but did have some misfires with LPPs, in N frames with ribbed, reduced power mainsprings.
Thirty years ago, CCIs seemed harder to seat in the Dillon than they do currently; others have disputed the 'hard primer' thing about CCIs. Only recently returned to using them, due to beggars not being choosers right now. Make certain they are fully seated.
Regarding springs, I have the Wolff range (11-15lbs), and tinker as 9mmephiphay suggests. It is possible to test hop a spring without replacing the sideplate; be gentle. Never found a 'one size fits most' with rebound springs. Never reduced a J mainspring.
Has your gun been slicked up inside? The rebound slide track is a good place to start, along with some careful, light stoning of working surfaces. If your rebound slide itself is black, Teflon coated, just take care of any high spots.
Whereabouts in PA are you headed? I'm in Westsylvania, and it's a reasonably gun friendly place. Conventional wisdom; PA has Philly at one end, the 'burgh at the other, and Alabama in between....
Best,
Moon

 

[Pat Riot]

@halfmoonclip
I am headed to SW PA 50 miles south of Pittsburgh. IF we get the house we think we are going to get. If not it’ll be northern West Va.
Westsylvania, haven’t heard that name in many years.

The only “slicking up” my 442 has seen is by shooting it. A lot, over the years. My slide is silver, if I remember correctly. I will probably just leave things as they are, except for the spring change. I may take @9mmepiphany advice and replace the firing pin, but I am going to look things over real good. I had the side plate off about a month ago for a good flushing with Hornady One Shot and things looked really good.
I may get around to working on it this weekend. We’ll see.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Have you ever flushed out your cylinder/crane assembly?

I usually use a teflon grease on the rebound slide, hand, bolt, trigger and hammer bosses

 

[Pat Riot]

Have you ever flushed out your cylinder/crane assembly?

I usually use a teflon grease on the rebound slide, hand, bolt, trigger and hammer bosses

Yes, I have. It has been a while. It will be done this weekend. I may just have a reprieve from working all weekend.

I have never tried Teflon grease. I typically use Mobil 1 grease but I have never used it in a revolver’s works.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Mobile 1 is fine…I’ve used it many times. I just have a lot of stray samples around the garage.

Grease has the advantage of staying in place and being more resistant to heat

 

[Tacoma]

I usually go with a 9# hammer spring and a 13# trigger return spring in my modern J frames and have never had a FTF. That combo gives me a noteably lighter pull, positive trigger reset and plenty of Umph for the hammer. ( Btw, I say "modern" since it seems revolvers made in the last 10 years or so have much improved/smooth internal finish as compared to earlier models. Earlier models take more polishing and or heavier springs) That said, I just tried a Apex Tactical Duty kit in my new (to me) model 60 pro range/woods gun ( because I was curious). The Apex comes with matched hammer and rebound springs which feel similar to what I'm used to. ( I'm not sure what they actually are rated at.) The big thing with the Apex is that it also comes with an extended firing pin and lighter firing pin spring. The pin is about 30 thousandths longer so that will strike the primer deeper/ with more authority. I'm really happy with the "feel" of the Apex. Smooth but not overly light, (9# DA and 2.2# SA as measured). It costs about $10 more than a Wilson spring kit but the firing pin upgrade makes it worth it IMHO. Took all of 10 min to install since there are no variables.. As for reliability, APEX has a great reputation but admittedly, I haven't run enough rounds ( of varying brands) through my model 60 this week to swear by it. hth

 

[Jonesy814]

Gents, I appreciate the concern. What I am looking for is a recommendation on the rebound spring tension. I do have an understanding of hammer and mainsprings. If the 8# is too light I will change it.
Thanks very much.

I have an 8 pound mainspring in my model 60 Pro with a 15# rebound spring. It sets off CCI primers fine

 

[wcwhitey]

Westsylvania, yes, like Pennsyltucky.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The western part of the state, the 'burgh excepted, is a land apart. I'm from Somerset County, which is pretty hard to tell from its neighbor to the south.
Pat, if your rebound slide is silver, chances are the internals are forged. This gun responds well to some judicious polishing; use fine emery cloth if you don't have stones. No need to go crazy, just polish the rebound slide and its track inside the gun.
Good luck on your move,
Moon