Jeff Cooper's Ideal Pistol

[wally]

As I understand it, the pistol to which he was referring was the CZ40B (I believe Colt called it the Z-40). It had/has a 1911-style grip angle, but had little2nothing else in common with the 1911 pattern and wound up being solely chambered in 40S&W.

I've a CZ 40B. I like it, great shooter. As a defense gun close but no cigar, the safety is too far forward and high for the grip angle. Got the 1911 grip angle right but the safety is placed wrong.

--wally.

 

[-X-]

"Cooper's original concept of the 10mm was about like a 10mm FBI or hot .40, not the 10mm Norma D&D."

Uh, No. You are wrong. Cooper wanted to duplicate (or come close to) 41 Mag Ballistics in a 1911 sized autoloader. The FBI only down loaded the cartridge because their "accountants" could not seem to qual. with full power rounds. Oh, and "hot .40" is an oxymoron...


And as for the poorly executed comment...myth. Poorly managed company, maybe.

For the record I never said the Bren was the ultimate in my opinion, only that it was Coopers idea of such at the time....My idea of ultimate is a custom Delta Elite. Just my opinion.

 

[NordicG3K]

Originally Col. Cooper was thinking along the lines of a 200gn .400" caliber bullet at approximately 1,000fps. Whit Collins picked up on the idea and with Cooper's assitance this cartridge became the .40 G&A. The .40 G&A used a shorter case as the test platform was a Browning Hi-Power and so the load was toned down to a 180gn bullet at 1,050fps. This was around 1973. Mr. Collins continued to work on the .40 G&A while Col. Cooper started working on what he was calling the .40 Super (not to be confused with Triton's .40 Super). It was in 1978 that Col. Cooper started working with Tom Dornaus and Mike Dixon and the .40 Super evolved into the 10mm Auto.

The Bren Ten did have some manufacturing issues, but mainly the problems were due poor business practices and lack of capital. The design is still a good one and if someone like Colt, Kimber, Kahr, etc. picked up on the design I think it would do quite well. I doubt this will happen in the near future though as most manufacturers are working around the clock just to build current design pistols.

 

[Dave Sample]

Very interesting! That is what makes Horse Races. How many of you have Met Colonel Jeff Cooper? I will be saying Hi to him Saturday Night.

 

[Owen]

marshall,

Would you like a shake with that?

owen

 

[c_yeager]

I think Jeff Cooper is a pretty cool guy. And i have a lot of respect for him. But frankly i don't consider him any more qualified to tell ME what to carry than my local gas station attendant.

 

[George Hill]

Born 10 May 1920 in Los Angeles, USA, John Dean Cooper is widely recognised as the father of modern combat pistol shooting.

Picture of Jeff on the range. Jeff became a Lieutenant Colonel in the US Marines, having served in the Pacific during World War 2 and later re-enlisting for Korea.

In the 50's Jeff was a guiding light in the Bear Valley Gunslingers in California, later to develop into the Southwest Combat Pistol League. Many techniques new to pistol shooting which revolutionised the use of the handgun in combat can be traced back to these beginnings and Jeff's later work at the American Pistol Institute at Gunsite Ranch, Arizona (which Jeff founded and developed). Jeff has also been influential in the development of the modern rifle, notably with the "Scout Rifle" concept.

Pretty damn good qualifications if you ask me. Combat Veteran, with combat engagements with a pistol... Totally redefined handgun fighting over what was previously popular "The FBI Crouch"... Has taught thousands of students how to shoot better (these students being police and military and upstanding citizens)... published several books all about shooting... and is one of the smartest people around... Other than his devotion to the Steyr example of his concept still has a sharp mind and wit...
If this guy makes a suggetion to me - I'm going to listen to him. Because A: He just might know something that I don't.
B: Being Older can indeed mean being wiser.
C: I'm not so arrogant as to think I know everything.
D: Jeff Cooper has a pretty good track record of being right on the money.
E: He has been shooting a lot longer than I have been.

 

[Hard Ball]

And Col Cooper has used a pistol in actual combat three times.

 

[c_yeager]

I am well aware of Jeff Cooper's resume. he has a lot of impressive experience and knowledge. Which makes him quite an authority on pistols in general.

The problem is that telling ME which pistols I should use requires knowledge in TWO areas. Pistols and ME. Cooper knows all about guns, but he doesnt know me from Adam. Thus, he is NOT qualified to tell ME what pistol I should own.

For example, what if i had suffered a nasty injury resulting in the loss of my thumbs past the first nuckle? Not gonna be real effective on the 1911 safety am i?

What if circumstances require that i dress in a way in which i simply CANNOT conceal a 1911? Not a good choice then is it?

 

[George Hill]

Yes, Jeff Cooper is telling you what to carry, specifically you.

 

[Dave Sample]

Some people should not own guns. I was packing a 1911 on my hip long before I heard of Jeff. I had my own personal reasons for that. He is 84 years old and could care less what you pack. Advice is cheap and every one can do as they please with the choice of defensive weapons. I am one of his biggest fans and will always be. I do not carry a LW Commander when I am out and about and at Gunsite because he advised me to. I carry it because it's a great fight stopper and I am not 72 now because I lost any gunfights. I also use a six gun loaded with my own lead hollow points once in a while. Those 238 lead bullets are good for their intended purpose, also. I guess it's a sin now to be old and intelligent. I will tell him about that the next time I see him. I really think he knows about that better than I do.

 

[Hard Ball]

"1of Jef'f's shootings was execution
of a fully-exposed, unaware Jap"

Have you ever been in combat/ War is not a game. Cooper saw an enemy soldier and killed him. That was his duty.

 

[George Hill]

No, you are supposed to say something like "You lose" or "You missed me" so they see you before you shoot at them.


Too many movies...

 

[Hard Ball]

There is no such thing as a fair fight with lethal weapons!

 

[c_yeager]

Yes, Jeff Cooper is telling you what to carry, specifically you.

No he is telling EVERYONE what to carry.

 

[Delmar]

Cooper is really big on 1911 style weapons.

Bill Jordan was a proponent of the M-19 S&W.

Would have loved to have seen them compete against each other!

Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith had a lot of press espousing their pets for a lot of years. Both made sense from their particular points of view. In the end, you have to make an intelligent choice as to what YOUR capabilities are, not theirs.

I'm a 1911 fan, not because of Cooper, but because it does well in my hands-better than any revolver I've picked up. Would I tell Bill Jordan he did not know what he was talking about? Not likely.......