The 1911 pistol: Obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial

[200Apples]

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Those of you familiar with the 1911 know. It's military trials, it's supreme combat record... Anyone familiar with the Leatherslap competitions Jeff Cooper started in Big Bear, CA in the 1950s, his move to Arizona in the late '60s to establish what became the world-famous Gunsite school, his books, his columns for Guns & Ammo and with his Commentaries know the story. Any devotee of the 1911-pattern pistol needs not be convinced. Obsolete? Hardly. The J.M. Browning design continues to flourish 115 years on.

That said, The stories never get old. Here's just one of the many:

Jeff Cooper Commentaries, August, 1993

Recently a [Gunsite] family member (who does not wish his name broadcast since he is a full-time lawman) was in attendance at a military smallarms school. This was considered an elite organization to which only the crème de la crème were invited. It was conducted by the Defense Department, which might have put us on the alert.

When our friend showed up for work with his 1911 it was immediately explained to him by the teachers at the school that what he was carrying was obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial. It would handicap him in the conduct of the training. Naturally, being one of the enlightened, he stated that he would try and struggle along. In the final shooting exercises our friend was so far ahead of the rest of the school that he was, in effect, in a different category. This did not endear him to the management.

http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/jeff1_5.html

Please share your favorite tales of this obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial pistol design, if you'd be so inclined. Thanks in advance.

 

[eldon519]

The 1911 was the first centerfire pistol I ever owned. Got a SW1911 and put around 10,000 rounds through it in a couple years. Only part that ever broke was the firing pin stop. I got pretty handy with it, and my best anecdotal achievement was to shoot a bumble bee out of the air mid-flight with it. I also bought a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911, but it wasn't particularly accurate, and I never warmed up to it. I eventually traded it. While I really liked the SW1911, both it and the SA jammed too much to be trusted for SD whether dirty or clean, different mags, ammo, etc. I've still got the SW, but I only bring it out once every year or two these days. Still since it was my first centerfire, I'll probably keep it and pass it down someday.

 

[Deanimator]

The 1911 was the first centerfire pistol I ever owned.

Likewise. Mine was a Series 70 Colt I bought the week I turned 21.

It's long since been retired as my carry gun to be used as a bullseye wadcutter gun. It was replaced, first with a Norinco M1911, then that in turn recently with a Citadel 3.5 CS.

I have and carry other firearms, but there's not much that any other handgun can do that I really need done that an M1911 can't do. I wouldn't CONSIDER another centerfire semi-auto for bullseye competition. Compared to an M1911, I'd just as well THROW almost anything else at the twenty five yard rapid fire target. The exception is the S&W Model 52... but I've already got a Giles .38 Special M1911, so there's not much point...

 

[tark]

As a Small Arms Repairman (45B20) in Germany in 1969-70, I saw a lot of 1911A1s and even an occasional 1911 that the Army somehow forgot to replace or upgrade. I can't ever remember having to repair one, other than replacing springs. They came in to be sent off to Dachau, where The Germans re-parkerized them. A block of the guns, about a hundred , were used for an OCS school for training purposes. I was lucky enough to be allowed to examine the service records if those hundred or so guns. Some of them had been there since the end of WW2 and some of them had had over 100 thousand rounds run through them.

If that isn't reliable, I don't Know what is!

 

[barnbwt]

Hearsay and rumors, Mr. Cooper, and nothing more.

(See? I can troll, too. )

TCB

 

[C0untZer0]

There are entire forums for people who love the 1911 that much, and more power to them:

https://forums.1911forum.com/

http://forum.m1911.org/

https://www.1911addicts.com/

 

[.45cultist]

It says something that the design still shines today, that it is capable of fitting so many different sized people with triggers, grips and mainspring housings swapped out. Mine first was a Norinco, now somewhat valuable and Filipino M1911's are the budget guns. After the Air Force, I got a Series 70 with a GI bushing on the reverse taper barrel. Still have both along with an M1991 stainless. I'd like another S70 given a choice.

 

[Otto]

Is Jeff Cooper related to Bradley Cooper?

 

[Rock185]

Many many years ago I traded for a 1911A1. Later the Army was nice enough to issue me one. Until I started to read Col. Cooper's articles though, I really had only a very rudimentary understanding of how a 1911 type pistol might best be used in combat. Without Cooper, I don't believe the 1911 would have anything like the following it has today. It would be of interest to collectors, military historians, guys who enjoy shooting old, odd military firearms, etc, much as say the Webley revolver is. Functional yes, but certainly nothing any modern shooter, soldier, competitor or LEO would want to have to depend on. I attended training at Gunsite on a couple of occasions, met the Colonel, and admit I didn't always agree with him. That being said, IMHO he is the man most responsible for the current widespread interest in 1911s, and subsequent mega-million dollar growth industry generated by interest, purchase, customization and use of this old "obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial" pistol. I was certainly affected by the "Cult?" of the 1911. For my last decade in full time LE, in spite of being considered a bit odd by my younger co-workers, I carried a Colt Govt. model. I would not have done so if I my 1911s had not displayed dependable performance.

BTW, tark, thanks for the info on 1911 longevity by someone who has actual, not internet, knowledge of same.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Keep in mind folks, Col. Cooper 'taught for the classes, and not the masses.'

That is he expected one to train, and train hard, to master ones weapon. Most folk don't want to be bothered with that. Sure the 1911, in .45, kicks. Sure it is of limited ammo capacity, and yes, it is more complicated to use than a 'point and click' auto (but NOT a DA/AS.)

Now I'm a Glock user. Even a 9mm carrier. But I do have fully carry ready 1911s and they are second to none.

The only thing that is 'obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial' is thinking the 1911 is done for.

Deaf

 

[tark]

Thank you Rock185. You should hear some of the horror stories about the way those OCS idiots treated some of the other weapons they trained with. More like played with.....A couple of M-14s with selector switches installed immediatly come to mind.

But that is off topic and perhaps the subject of a different thread.

I worked for Les Baer for twenty-one years, and I have been exposed to 1911s with higher round counts than what I mentioned in my previous thread. The girls on our shooting team would put Lord knows how many rounds through their guns in a year. Every thirty thousand rounds or so they sent the guns back for a checkup. I saw those guns two or three times a year. Rarely, the frame to slide fit would loosen up a bit, and Les would have us simple build them a new gun. Les never cared much for peening frame rails.

Bottom line for me is this: The 1911 is the second greatest battle implement ever devised..... right behind, and very closely following...The M-1 Garand.

 

[guyfromohio]

Some of the newer training groups (I dare hypothesize "most") are subscribing to the Rob Pincus philosophy against the 1911 for defensive use. I took some training two years ago. This was very well-done, but we heard horror story after horror story about 1911 failure rates. In fact, if you didn't carry a larger capacity 9mm with no external safety, you were most definitely going against philosophy. The M&P next to you could be failing every other round, but the second your .40 or .45 did anything goofy...."this is what we're talking about". It honestly got me changing some things. Now that I've rediscovered the joys of the 1911, I plan to carry it once I've established confidence. There is a break-in period, they are more susceptible to bad magazines, and do take muscle memory training for the safety. I think that the problem with the performance in these classes is that you are generally getting shooters that have not put 10,000 rounds through their trusty 1911. More like 100 through there new 3" Kimber.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Yep. Know your weapon, know your limitations. Then master your weapon by addressing your limitations.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Is Jeff Cooper related to Bradley Cooper?

LOL, could be Papa was a rolling stone.

George Patton said if you want to scare someone, use a 45. If you want to kill them, get a 357.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

A thumb safety and a double stack mag are really all the separate the manual of arms of a 1911 from a Glock 21. All the other differences are basically transparent.

I'd really like companies other than Para to offer affordable double stack 1911's personally.

 

[bannockburn]

I really can't understand those who consider the 1911 to be obsolete, irrelevant, and immaterial. All I know is I always get a smile every time I read the inscription "100 Years of Service" on the slide of my Colt Government, purchased in 2011.

 

[Wishoot]

Obsolete? No.

The best platform for me? No.

For carry, I prefer a pistol of similar size that carries more rounds.
For fun it's hard to beat a 1911 though.

Just my opinion.

 

[Z1900]

Not sure any one pistol fits all scenarios, but the 1911 does it better than most. There are so many variations of the 1911 today. Tough to beat its accuracy, dependability, durability and feel. I have always felt confident handling a 1911 and that means a lot.

 

[Onmilo]

Never felt I have handicapped myself by carrying a 1911 design in .45 acp.
Enough said on the matter.

 

[entropy]

As a Small Arms Repairman (45B20) in Germany in 1969-70, I saw a lot of 1911A1s and even an occasional 1911 that the Army somehow forgot to replace or upgrade. I can't ever remember having to repair one, other than replacing springs. They came in to be sent off to Dachau, where The Germans re-parkerized them. A block of the guns, about a hundred , were used for an OCS school for training purposes. I was lucky enough to be allowed to examine the service records if those hundred or so guns. Some of them had been there since the end of WW2 and some of them had had over 100 thousand rounds run through them.

If that isn't reliable, I don't Know what is!

That was my SMOS, PMOS was 76Y. I had a 1911 (NOT A1) in my Arms room that was the most accurate pistol we had. Colt manufacture, 1917. The XO had that one, and I went over it before each post match. The trigger was a smooth as glass 4.5#, minimum reg., and it was nice and tight, but still a combat gun. Actually, all 7 of the 1911's in my Arms room were in such shape after I went over them, though 2 of the A1's were still rattly. They still shot well in competition and quals. I cried the day I had to turn them in for the M9's.

 

[CleanDean]

My 1983 COLT Gold Cup Natl. Match....... is one of my few sidearms , that will , on a cold bore shot ; scores an "X" ring. Witnessed by a small group of folks , from time to time. At my Club's centerfire competitive shoots.
I have been bothered , by an admiring few, to sell it. I would rather divorce my wife.

 

[Tallball]

I am confused when people complain about its recoil.

My tiny 380 pinches my finger sometimes. My snub 38 with a super-hot load can sting a little. My 44 magnum with a super-hot load can sting more than a little.

But I have four 1911 varients in different calibers (380, 9mm, 40, 45), and none of them have much recoil according to my standards.

 

[Hangingrock]

Jeff Coopers preference for the 1911 series pistol was not based on his actual combat experience. His duties during WW2 were the commanding officer of the Marine Detachment on the battleship USS Pennsylvania. One of his duties was surveying of naval gunfire effect thus he never took part in a assault landing but the aftermath.

During the Korean War he was not a line officer but he was rather involved in covert operations outside of the Korean theater of operations.

It was is between war studies and the time period of the mid nineteen fifties to early nineteen sixties that he developed his theory of defensive pistol use.

 

[agtman]

1911s are obsolete junk ....

... NOT!

Seriously, ... despite having the alleged "handicap" of a (typical) 8+1 magazine, the 1911 is still a proven and successful battlefield weapon.

The premise behind these types of questions is wrong anyway.

Wars (declared or not), "police actions," humanitarian interventions, military skirmishes of all sorts, et. al, are, on the soldier level, fought by rifles, not sidearms.

Still, ... I can see where it would beg the question of what would a soldier carry for a pistol if he could choose?

Sadly, I'll never know who the U.S. soldier was who carried this 1911 on to the 2-way shooting range that was WW1, but I'm reasonably sure he didn't b*tch that it wasn't a 9mm Glock or a Beretta.

1915 Colt 1911.

 

[jmr40]

The 1911 has gravitated toward the shooting games and away from a practical personal defense weapon. Very few production 1911's will ever be asked to do more than hit targets at a range and the gun makers build them with that in mind.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't be built and used for that purpose, but in 2015 there are far better options. There were far better options in 1946 when the military decided to upgrade to a more modern weapon. Budget cuts are the only reason it wasn't dropped then.

If it weren't for Cooper the 1911 would be seen in the same light as the Colt SAA. Interesting guns, but not any ones top choice for combat.