Precision
member
I have absolutely zero experience with this topic, but I was just curious what some of you guys would say. They both have their ups and downs.
Just out of curiousity: 5.56 or 7.62 for a SAW?
- Thread starter Precision
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If you have to carry it, the 249 (5.56) is lighter, and ammo is lighter for a given round count. The 240G, on the other hand, has heavier bullets, and tends to put the BG down with more authority.
As a civilian all you are likely to do with a saw would be attacking inanimate objects at a range, so ammo cost would be the main concern. In that instance, the 5.56 would likely be the better choice.
As a civilian all you are likely to do with a saw would be attacking inanimate objects at a range, so ammo cost would be the main concern. In that instance, the 5.56 would likely be the better choice.
highorder
Member
A question on the merits of caliber in a Squad Automatic Weapon?
[strike]On a forum focused on civilian Right to Keep and Bear Arms?
That's just a bit off topic, I think.
I'm sure there are military forums where you will have more luck with this stuff.[/strike]
Please read my post below for clarification. Thanks.
[strike]On a forum focused on civilian Right to Keep and Bear Arms?
That's just a bit off topic, I think.
I'm sure there are military forums where you will have more luck with this stuff.[/strike]
Please read my post below for clarification. Thanks.
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Precision
member
sorry 
Joe in fla
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highorder said: On a forum focused on civilian Right to Keep and Bear Arms? That's just a bit off topic, I think.
Think again! The 2nd Amendment covers FA firearms as well as any other. I don't see anything in the 2nd Amendment that limits it to any particular firearms. Or are you one of those guys that thinks that it only applies to duck hunting? Just because the federal government regulates and taxes FA firearms doesn't mean that they're not legal to own or aren't covered under the 2nd Amendment. What''s more, this question is in the "NFA Firearms and Accessories" section where it belongs. There are plenty of items in this forum that are not strictly limited to "civilian Right to Keep and Bear Arms". Consider the FFL Dealer section, the GunSmithing section and the Non-Firearms Weapons section. AND as a matter of fact, this forum's home page describes this (the NFA Firearms and Accessories) section as "Machine guns, suppressors, short barrels, destructive devices, and any other weapon that's so much fun the US Government charges $200 extra."
Think again! The 2nd Amendment covers FA firearms as well as any other. I don't see anything in the 2nd Amendment that limits it to any particular firearms. Or are you one of those guys that thinks that it only applies to duck hunting? Just because the federal government regulates and taxes FA firearms doesn't mean that they're not legal to own or aren't covered under the 2nd Amendment. What''s more, this question is in the "NFA Firearms and Accessories" section where it belongs. There are plenty of items in this forum that are not strictly limited to "civilian Right to Keep and Bear Arms". Consider the FFL Dealer section, the GunSmithing section and the Non-Firearms Weapons section. AND as a matter of fact, this forum's home page describes this (the NFA Firearms and Accessories) section as "Machine guns, suppressors, short barrels, destructive devices, and any other weapon that's so much fun the US Government charges $200 extra."
Highorder, the point of the 2nd is to ensure the civilian population is just as well armed as the goverment to rebel against a tyrannical goverment, not to hunt and protect your family.
We are definetly outgunned due to laws and restrictions over the last 200 years or so.
Sorry for the off topic rant, BTW I have seen semi auto M60s and 249s but they are 6-8k$.
We are definetly outgunned due to laws and restrictions over the last 200 years or so.
Sorry for the off topic rant, BTW I have seen semi auto M60s and 249s but they are 6-8k$.
Tim the student
Member
I've never seen a 7.62 SAW (M249). Do they even exist?
Or is this thread about the merits of a M249 vs M240?
ETA: I guess they do! I never saw when when I was in. Are they fielded outside of SOCOM at all?
Or is this thread about the merits of a M249 vs M240?
ETA: I guess they do! I never saw when when I was in. Are they fielded outside of SOCOM at all?
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
The MK48 is a 7.62 version of the MK46, which is a USSOCOM variant of the the M249
highorder
Member
Joe in fla:
I chuckled when you suggested I might be a fudd. A quick look at nearly 4k worth of posts over the years would have shown you otherwise. I understand and agree that NFA items are an important facet of THR and the 2A.
The OP is an honest, if overeager teen who has hot hands for the "create thread" button when he should be wearing out the search function. I tire of questions about exotic hardware that the OP has NO experience with, can't legally own, and doesn't have anything constructive to offer to the conversation.
Am I the only one that tires of the "I have absolutely zero experience with this topic, but I was just curious what some of you guys would say." threads? Some will say that I'm trying to discourage the lad. In fact, I'm trying to guide him in a more constructive path. Search, read, think, understand, SHOOT, form opinions, change your mind, modify your positions, educate others...
Asking people what they think of military hardware isn't half as enlightening as picking up a copy of Cartridges of the World, or Sixguns, or even an out of date Shooters Bible.
Read. Educate yourself with something beyond random internet prose.
Perhaps I'm just prickly because I was the SAME kid at that age, and I now realize I was a painfully obvious dweeb. I'm thankful my dad pointed me in the right direction; the library. I'm also thankful this was before the internet, or I might have suffocated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
My opinion, worth what you paid.
I chuckled when you suggested I might be a fudd. A quick look at nearly 4k worth of posts over the years would have shown you otherwise. I understand and agree that NFA items are an important facet of THR and the 2A.
The OP is an honest, if overeager teen who has hot hands for the "create thread" button when he should be wearing out the search function. I tire of questions about exotic hardware that the OP has NO experience with, can't legally own, and doesn't have anything constructive to offer to the conversation.
Am I the only one that tires of the "I have absolutely zero experience with this topic, but I was just curious what some of you guys would say." threads? Some will say that I'm trying to discourage the lad. In fact, I'm trying to guide him in a more constructive path. Search, read, think, understand, SHOOT, form opinions, change your mind, modify your positions, educate others...
Asking people what they think of military hardware isn't half as enlightening as picking up a copy of Cartridges of the World, or Sixguns, or even an out of date Shooters Bible.
Read. Educate yourself with something beyond random internet prose.
Perhaps I'm just prickly because I was the SAME kid at that age, and I now realize I was a painfully obvious dweeb. I'm thankful my dad pointed me in the right direction; the library. I'm also thankful this was before the internet, or I might have suffocated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
My opinion, worth what you paid.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
There's no issue with discussing military hardware on this board last time I checked.
mljdeckard
Member
I like the idea of a Mk 48, but I've never shot one.
I like the 240B, but they are BIG. Bigger than the old 60. I would only want it vehicle-mounted. (The 240s I learned on were the tanker versions.) It would be nice to have a medium gun that is easier to hump.
But seriously, I LOVE the 5.56 SAW. I do everything with it at the range I need to. And I'll let you in on something, past 300 yards, it penetrates plating better than the 7.62 AP. I don't ever wish my SAW was a 240. The only upgrade I feel is justified is straight to an M2HB.
I like the 240B, but they are BIG. Bigger than the old 60. I would only want it vehicle-mounted. (The 240s I learned on were the tanker versions.) It would be nice to have a medium gun that is easier to hump.
But seriously, I LOVE the 5.56 SAW. I do everything with it at the range I need to. And I'll let you in on something, past 300 yards, it penetrates plating better than the 7.62 AP. I don't ever wish my SAW was a 240. The only upgrade I feel is justified is straight to an M2HB.
joeq
Member
delete
killchain
Member
Try carrying six ammo cans of 7.62x51 NATO and tell me if you think it's a good idea.
A typical combat load for an M249 SAW is 1200 rounds.
A typical combat load for an M249 SAW is 1200 rounds.
To highorder, I think honestly that a majority of us as children have intrest in things that we have zero exprierience with. I had a huge facination with guns that there was no way I could possibly afford.
When I turned 17, I enlisted in the Marine Corps, left for boot the summmer I graduated highshool, and had ALOT of those questions answered.
The 240G does exist, but isnt exaclty a SAW. It can function in said role, but the 249 is much more favorable, as it can use the same ammo the m4/m16 rifle does.
The main place I have seen 240s of any variation used was attached to vehicles of some kind. They are used in tanks as a coaxial to the main gun, and the loader on the M1A1 had a 240 mounted by his hatch.
The reason 240s arent seen as often is they arent as big as the M2, and just not as dramatic in the war movies produced today.
When I turned 17, I enlisted in the Marine Corps, left for boot the summmer I graduated highshool, and had ALOT of those questions answered.
The 240G does exist, but isnt exaclty a SAW. It can function in said role, but the 249 is much more favorable, as it can use the same ammo the m4/m16 rifle does.
The main place I have seen 240s of any variation used was attached to vehicles of some kind. They are used in tanks as a coaxial to the main gun, and the loader on the M1A1 had a 240 mounted by his hatch.
The reason 240s arent seen as often is they arent as big as the M2, and just not as dramatic in the war movies produced today.
earlthegoat2
Member
The SAW is designed to be a fire suppression/superiority weapon. Something a large number of small calliber ammunition does well. A 7.62 SAW by nature would have less of everything but have higher power per round of ammunition.
Used in its intended role a SAW should be 5.56. Volume of fire being paramount. A SAW in 7.62 would have to more of a precise weapon. Shorter bursts aimed more precisely. This would be maximize the utility of your lesser ammo you could carry.
There are uses for both. The M60E3 was developed for just such as purpose as the the MK48. That being a 7.62 machine gun that does not have the size of a GPMG and can be more easily transported by the average infantryman and used similary to the SAW. Not unlike the BAR in WWII. Even in the Vietnam era certain units were outfitted with lightened M60s for similar use. However the advent and demise of the Stoner 63 brought to life the small caliber SAW like weapon and I am pretty sure it was this that brought about the development of the Minimi by FN in the mid 70s and then the adoption of the 249 by the US armed forces.
There is still a need for a 7.62 variant to be sure. The utility is less though. There is both. Not one or the other.
Used in its intended role a SAW should be 5.56. Volume of fire being paramount. A SAW in 7.62 would have to more of a precise weapon. Shorter bursts aimed more precisely. This would be maximize the utility of your lesser ammo you could carry.
There are uses for both. The M60E3 was developed for just such as purpose as the the MK48. That being a 7.62 machine gun that does not have the size of a GPMG and can be more easily transported by the average infantryman and used similary to the SAW. Not unlike the BAR in WWII. Even in the Vietnam era certain units were outfitted with lightened M60s for similar use. However the advent and demise of the Stoner 63 brought to life the small caliber SAW like weapon and I am pretty sure it was this that brought about the development of the Minimi by FN in the mid 70s and then the adoption of the 249 by the US armed forces.
There is still a need for a 7.62 variant to be sure. The utility is less though. There is both. Not one or the other.
docnyt
Member
I agree with highorder. I've seen the threads created by the OP. He would have been branded as a "new thread --ore" if there were such a term. A lot of enthusiasm and access to the Internet without much introspection, which is understandable but can get irritating for us curmudgeons if there is no productive contribution from the creator of the thread. Its like listening to background music/noise for him, I guess.
Joe in fla
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Highorder: I understand your frustration about people not using the Search function and asking the same questions over and over. But that wasn't what you originally posted so I'm glad to see that you edited the post. We were all Dweebs at some point but asking questions is one way to get past that so I do give the OP credit for that. He just failed to do his homework first. Thanks for the reply and your explanation.
Some of the BEST teachers that I ever had used to say that there is no such thing as a dumb question!
FWIW I've had very poor results with the Search function. I've tried searching for words or text stings that I KNOW are in various topics but it doesn't find them. Even when I specify the poster's name and the particular forum that they're in, the Search function doesn't find them (false negatives). Other searches yield many hits but when I look at the posting it doesn't appear to contain the text that I searched for (false positives).
BTW Just minutes before posted this message I tried to use the Search function to find a thread that I posted something in. I entered my user name in the search function along with the other items but the search consistantly responded that it was an invalid user name! The top of the page shows me logged in and my user name I even cut and pasted from there and into the search but the system still says that it's an invalid user name!!
Some of the BEST teachers that I ever had used to say that there is no such thing as a dumb question!
FWIW I've had very poor results with the Search function. I've tried searching for words or text stings that I KNOW are in various topics but it doesn't find them. Even when I specify the poster's name and the particular forum that they're in, the Search function doesn't find them (false negatives). Other searches yield many hits but when I look at the posting it doesn't appear to contain the text that I searched for (false positives).
BTW Just minutes before posted this message I tried to use the Search function to find a thread that I posted something in. I entered my user name in the search function along with the other items but the search consistantly responded that it was an invalid user name! The top of the page shows me logged in and my user name I even cut and pasted from there and into the search but the system still says that it's an invalid user name!!
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highorder
Member
Searching THR for the topics the OP has posted about probably won't return much, because it's either exotic vaporware, or like this thread, one of the oldest gun debates out there.
Dropping 5.56 vs 7.62 into google returns 117,000 results, a lifetime of reading the same firmly entrenched camps opinions reiterated. In this particular case, I just don't think a fresh debate over caliber was going to be productive, especially considering the OP doesn't have anything new to add. It's just tossing a scrap of meat out to be wrestled over.
I apologize if it sounds harsh. I didn't mean to suggest the OP not ask questions, I do think he needs to focus his research a bit better to build his knowledge base. I can't be the only one that drops a question into Google to survey what kind of information is available on a topic. Hell, doing so with specific questions has brought me HERE on enough occasions that I decided to lurk, then join, then lurk some more, then contribute where I can.
Of course all this is meaningless, as I'm sure someone will start a 9mm vs. 45acp thread before the day is out.
I'll stay out of that one.
Dropping 5.56 vs 7.62 into google returns 117,000 results, a lifetime of reading the same firmly entrenched camps opinions reiterated. In this particular case, I just don't think a fresh debate over caliber was going to be productive, especially considering the OP doesn't have anything new to add. It's just tossing a scrap of meat out to be wrestled over.
I apologize if it sounds harsh. I didn't mean to suggest the OP not ask questions, I do think he needs to focus his research a bit better to build his knowledge base. I can't be the only one that drops a question into Google to survey what kind of information is available on a topic. Hell, doing so with specific questions has brought me HERE on enough occasions that I decided to lurk, then join, then lurk some more, then contribute where I can.
Of course all this is meaningless, as I'm sure someone will start a 9mm vs. 45acp thread before the day is out.
I'll stay out of that one.
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Thats too easy. 45acp
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Oh man. I remember when I went through that phase. It's honestly painful to go back and read those old posts on █████████████.com*.
*Name redacted.
Tim the student
Member
FYI, if you want better search results, use google to search THR.
Type in the name of the site (no "www" needed) you want to search, followed by a colon. Then, use a space, and type in your search parameters.
It should look like this:
site:thehighroad.org saw+7.62
Doing so tells google to search only thehighroad.org, and only to show results with "saw" and "7.62" in the results.
Type in the name of the site (no "www" needed) you want to search, followed by a colon. Then, use a space, and type in your search parameters.
It should look like this:
site:thehighroad.org saw+7.62
Doing so tells google to search only thehighroad.org, and only to show results with "saw" and "7.62" in the results.
Madcap_Magician
Member
I don't think either. I want someone else in my squad to be carrying it.
I hate the SAW.
I hate the SAW.
rocky branch
Member
Being a practicing curmudgeon I am constantly dismayed at the blurting out of random questions by somefolks.
A couple seconds using Google or Dogpile usually produces gobs of relavent issues and even more interesting peripherally related reading.
Kinda like the old days going to libraries to study-so much info so little time.
It is true that there are no dumb questions, but there are questions that can be personally researched as well.
Good way to obtain knowledge and perspective.
A couple seconds using Google or Dogpile usually produces gobs of relavent issues and even more interesting peripherally related reading.
Kinda like the old days going to libraries to study-so much info so little time.
It is true that there are no dumb questions, but there are questions that can be personally researched as well.
Good way to obtain knowledge and perspective.
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