Vern Humphrey
Member
You split up the various duties -- the law enforcement and investigative duties go to the FBI -- no need for a specialized agency to concentrate on Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The tax duties go to the IRS.
Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program
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HorseSoldier
Member
Spread the bureaucracy and responsibility back into several different agencies and you also avoid the phenomenon of an organization using its remit to promote itself and chase budget money. That problem is not exclusive to the ATF, it's a general problem with bureaucracies.
wacki
Member
It's documented fact that they had other sources for guns. However, this is big deal given that the liberal media has been using Mexican violence as an argument for eliminating our rights. Despite what the legacy media says, it wasn't our freedom that was enabling the sale of thousands of guns to criminals ... purchased 40 at a time. It's the BATF intentionally choosing to not to do their job. Given the description of these sales, I doubt a lot of them were kosher.
It seems to me that the primary purpose of the BATFE is to frighten law abiding citizens out of exercising their constitutional rights, pressing a political goal.
Using fear to achieve a political goal is defined by Websters as terrorism.
Is the BATFE a state sponsored terrorist organization?
Using fear to achieve a political goal is defined by Websters as terrorism.
Is the BATFE a state sponsored terrorist organization?
I personally don't think our "elected" or "appointed" officials really care about anyone except themselves and what we think doesn't bother them. Stir the pot and it isn't cream that floats to the top inside the beltway. We, average Americans are looked down upon by the present officials. I expect the new laws will start with "Thou Shalt Not......", We aren't intelligent enough to think for ourselves. I personally wouldn't want to be 50yrs younger today and miss the freedom I enjoyed.
jerkface11
Member
It's pretty clear this administration allowed guns to make it into Mexico so that they could call for more gun control. My prediction is that they will throw some low level ATF agent under the bus and claim ignorance of everything.
jiminhobesound
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Another example of the idiots being in control.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
I think it's worse. Just before this broke in the news, if you remember, the news drum beat was that US guns were fueling violence in Mexico, with the implication that the AWB should be renewed. They were using this to both try and track "illegal" gun trafficing and as a statistic to enact more stringet gun laws.... gun laws backed by "Facts" of their own making. Hillary Clinton even stated this position during a trip to Mexico City in March 2009. They were looking to begin the discussion of new gun control measures.
THAT is why it is such an embarrasment. It went far enough that they started to close the loop / tipped their hand. Then it all blew up in their face.
Her words from that visit, from her website: "I have discussed with the Secretary and with the President what the United States can do to reduce the demand for drugs in our own country, and to stop the flow of illegal guns across our border to Mexico. And I reported to them on the major steps that our government announced yesterday.... " Later in an answer to the earlier vauge statement..."Obviously, I am someone who supported the assault weapons ban which was passed in 1994, but it was passed with an expiration date and it expired ten years later. I, as a senator, supported measures to try to reinstate it. Politically, that is a very big hurdle in our Congress. But there may be some approaches that could be acceptable, and we are exploring those." http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/03/120905.htm
THAT is why it is such an embarrasment. It went far enough that they started to close the loop / tipped their hand. Then it all blew up in their face.
Her words from that visit, from her website: "I have discussed with the Secretary and with the President what the United States can do to reduce the demand for drugs in our own country, and to stop the flow of illegal guns across our border to Mexico. And I reported to them on the major steps that our government announced yesterday.... " Later in an answer to the earlier vauge statement..."Obviously, I am someone who supported the assault weapons ban which was passed in 1994, but it was passed with an expiration date and it expired ten years later. I, as a senator, supported measures to try to reinstate it. Politically, that is a very big hurdle in our Congress. But there may be some approaches that could be acceptable, and we are exploring those." http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/03/120905.htm
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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597605
Six more LAWs were recovered on San Andres Island, Colombia in March 2008. Factory markings analysis of lot and serial numbers undertaken by DIA's Military Materiel Identification Division (CHUCKWAGON)/MIO-5) indicates that these LAWs were part of a shipment of fifty sent to the Honduran 2nd Infantry Battalion's TESON training element. The LAWs were originally transferred to Honduras in 1992 as part of a U.S. Foreign Military Sales program. (C/HND)
The dollar value of U.S. private-sector weapons shipments to Mexico in fiscal year 2009 exceeded the value of private arms shipments to two other major conflict regions elsewhere in the world, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even outpaced the value of arms shipped to one of the United States’ staunchest allies, Israel.
U.S. private-sector suppliers shipped a total of $177 million worth of defense articles — which includes items like military aircraft, firearms and explosives — to Mexico in fiscal 2009, which ended Sept. 30 of that year.
By comparison, over the same period, private arms companies in the U.S. shipped $40 million worth of weapons to Afghanistan; $126 million to Iraq; and $131 million to Israel.
In fact, Colombia, the source of most of the world’s cocaine and a major battlefront in the so-called war on drugs, received only $30 million in private-sector arms shipments from the U.S. in fiscal 2009.
The onslaught of weapons that hit Mexico in fiscal 2009 via these legal commercial exports is multiplied even further by the thousands of additional illegal weapons that the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) allegedly allowed to cross the border into Mexico, unchecked, as part of what appears to be a seriously flawed operation known as Fast and Furious — which was launched in October 2009.
Six more LAWs were recovered on San Andres Island, Colombia in March 2008. Factory markings analysis of lot and serial numbers undertaken by DIA's Military Materiel Identification Division (CHUCKWAGON)/MIO-5) indicates that these LAWs were part of a shipment of fifty sent to the Honduran 2nd Infantry Battalion's TESON training element. The LAWs were originally transferred to Honduras in 1992 as part of a U.S. Foreign Military Sales program. (C/HND)
The dollar value of U.S. private-sector weapons shipments to Mexico in fiscal year 2009 exceeded the value of private arms shipments to two other major conflict regions elsewhere in the world, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even outpaced the value of arms shipped to one of the United States’ staunchest allies, Israel.
U.S. private-sector suppliers shipped a total of $177 million worth of defense articles — which includes items like military aircraft, firearms and explosives — to Mexico in fiscal 2009, which ended Sept. 30 of that year.
By comparison, over the same period, private arms companies in the U.S. shipped $40 million worth of weapons to Afghanistan; $126 million to Iraq; and $131 million to Israel.
In fact, Colombia, the source of most of the world’s cocaine and a major battlefront in the so-called war on drugs, received only $30 million in private-sector arms shipments from the U.S. in fiscal 2009.
The onslaught of weapons that hit Mexico in fiscal 2009 via these legal commercial exports is multiplied even further by the thousands of additional illegal weapons that the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) allegedly allowed to cross the border into Mexico, unchecked, as part of what appears to be a seriously flawed operation known as Fast and Furious — which was launched in October 2009.
Even with that grim report coming out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala way back in 2006, the U.S. State Department sanctioned the delivery of up to $36 million in arms shipments, via private U.S. companies, to that nation in fiscal years 2008 and 2009, according to government reports http://narcosphere.narconews.com/no...licy-planting-seeds-civil-society-destruction
And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.
From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:
Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers
And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.
From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:
Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers
Erik M
Member
Unfortunately I believe you will be correct. From what I heard on the radio, field agents were telling their superiors that the plan was going awry, FFL's including J&G Sales were involved and were becoming increasingly suspicious, and yet it want stopped until a whistle blower finally came forward. Who knows how many weapons truly made it across the border.
xfyrfiter
Member
All of the alphabet agencies are as corrupt as money can make them. They have the full support of the UN and George Soros's ilk. These agencies all need to be disbanded and unfunded, our country would be much better off in the long run.
N003k
Member
Anyone know if the hearings tomorrow will be on any of the CSPANs?
I argued with many a leftist Moon bat over this issue,and they seemed to stop talking (for a bit,until the logic notch started slipping back to it's normal position) when I suggested legalization of drugs as a better way to stop the violence...by taking the money out of it for the cartels,no money means no guns,as well as ammo and other such things.
They started foaming at the mouth from the pure simplicity of my solution (that's what I gathered from the responses they had).
Why trample on the rights of people in our country because the civilian population of another country can't handle their own problems?
They started foaming at the mouth from the pure simplicity of my solution (that's what I gathered from the responses they had).
Why trample on the rights of people in our country because the civilian population of another country can't handle their own problems?
withdrawn34
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Not to mention we already have the DEA, yet a separate agency handles tobacco and alcohol? And that agency also deals with firearms and explosives
JohnBT
Member
"Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? "
Are nominations still open for dumb post of the month?
So they have other guns? So what? Is that a reason for our government to give them hundreds and hundreds more?
Are nominations still open for dumb post of the month?
So they have other guns? So what? Is that a reason for our government to give them hundreds and hundreds more?
JohnBT
Member
"All of the alphabet agencies are as corrupt as money can make them. They have the full support of the UN and George Soros's ilk."
Maybe it wasn't the dumbest. How do people dream up this nonsense?
Maybe it wasn't the dumbest. How do people dream up this nonsense?
Carl N. Brown
Member
if the past is prologue....
In the Waco affair, ATF Director Higgins promised Treasury Undersecretary Noble that the raid would be called off if secrecy was compromised, and an undercover agent would be in the compound to warn if the element of surprise was lost.
The morning of 28 Feb 1993, ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez warned his bosses, Houston BATF SAC Phillip Chojnacki and his ASAC Chuck Sarabyn, that Koresh had been warned that a raid was coming. Rodriguez expected the raid to be cancelled.
Instead, Sarabyn and Chojnacki went ahead with the raid, four agents and six Davidians died that day. After the fact Sarabyn and Chojnacki fabricated "evidence" to blame ATF agents Rodriguez and Dyer for their bad decisions.
During the Waco hearings Rodriguez openly called Sarabyn and Chojnacki (pronounced Woe-nah-ski) liars. A dramatic point in the Waco: Rules of Engagement documentary.
....the prospects for the future are dim.
End result: Sarabyn and Chonacki kept their jobs, their pensions, and had all mention of Waco expunged from their service record.
The only Fed ever disciplined over Waco was AUSA Bill Johnston who blew the whistle over use of incendiary XM651 gas grenades by the FBI on the last day of the Waco siege.
The Waco hearings were a love fest between the Democrats and their favorite agency, ATF, and their favorite policy, gun control.
My bets on Gunwalker aka Fast and Furious:
The Whistle blowers will catch hell.
The gun dealers who cooperated with ATF will be made out as the villians.
No one at ATF who made bad decisions will pay for it.
In the Waco affair, ATF Director Higgins promised Treasury Undersecretary Noble that the raid would be called off if secrecy was compromised, and an undercover agent would be in the compound to warn if the element of surprise was lost.
The morning of 28 Feb 1993, ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez warned his bosses, Houston BATF SAC Phillip Chojnacki and his ASAC Chuck Sarabyn, that Koresh had been warned that a raid was coming. Rodriguez expected the raid to be cancelled.
Instead, Sarabyn and Chojnacki went ahead with the raid, four agents and six Davidians died that day. After the fact Sarabyn and Chojnacki fabricated "evidence" to blame ATF agents Rodriguez and Dyer for their bad decisions.
During the Waco hearings Rodriguez openly called Sarabyn and Chojnacki (pronounced Woe-nah-ski) liars. A dramatic point in the Waco: Rules of Engagement documentary.
....the prospects for the future are dim.
End result: Sarabyn and Chonacki kept their jobs, their pensions, and had all mention of Waco expunged from their service record.
The only Fed ever disciplined over Waco was AUSA Bill Johnston who blew the whistle over use of incendiary XM651 gas grenades by the FBI on the last day of the Waco siege.
The Waco hearings were a love fest between the Democrats and their favorite agency, ATF, and their favorite policy, gun control.
My bets on Gunwalker aka Fast and Furious:
The Whistle blowers will catch hell.
The gun dealers who cooperated with ATF will be made out as the villians.
No one at ATF who made bad decisions will pay for it.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The vast majority of weapons in the hands of Los Zetas and the Mexican drug cartels are military weapons supplied by the US Government to the military and police of Mexico, Guatemala, and other Latin American states corrupted by drug cartel bribes, threats and extortion.
So the US Government wants to blame civilian gun dealers and offer a renewal of the War on Guns (aka Assault Weapon Ban) as a solution to the political corruption rampant south of the border.
So the US Government wants to blame civilian gun dealers and offer a renewal of the War on Guns (aka Assault Weapon Ban) as a solution to the political corruption rampant south of the border.
Just from the numbers I saw today, we are talking a handful of purchasers buying thousands of firearms, every one of which ATFE said 'let them go' IN SPITE of sellers reporting them to ATFE.
This scandal is getting bigger and bigger.
This scandal is getting bigger and bigger.
Vern Humphrey
Member
ATFE needs to be abolished -- it would have a salutary effect on other Alphabet agencies.
As Voltaire said, "The English sometimes shoot an Admiral to encourage the others." Let's abolish a federal agency to encourage the others to follow the law and the Constitution.
As Voltaire said, "The English sometimes shoot an Admiral to encourage the others." Let's abolish a federal agency to encourage the others to follow the law and the Constitution.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597958
New slanted news artical on guns in Mexico from the Associated Press.
New slanted news artical on guns in Mexico from the Associated Press.
USAF_Vet
Member
that Voltaire was a smart guy.
I see all these state attorney generals suing the federal government over the new health care law. Why won't they sue over the unconstitutional gun laws?
Gun owners need to focus their energy and attention on the states. I'm waiting for the day when a Governor declares federal agencies have NO law enforcement jurisdiction inside their states.
The only path to restoration of liberty is through the states. Washington is too easily bought.
Gun owners need to focus their energy and attention on the states. I'm waiting for the day when a Governor declares federal agencies have NO law enforcement jurisdiction inside their states.
The only path to restoration of liberty is through the states. Washington is too easily bought.
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