usmarine0352_2005
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Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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Liberation
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Because the ATF tries to treat every gun buyer like they are a criminal and the left specifically attacks gun dealers as wanting to sell guns to criminals.
It speaks a lot of hypocrisy when they are specifically giving guns to the criminals.
It also begs the question, why? Why is the ATF investigating cartels? This is somebody trying to make a name for themselves and hopefully it will be on a orange
jumpsuit.
I also think it has to do with jealousy. We are jealous of the cartels, because they found away to get the ATF to give them guns instead of take them and drag their ass when its time to give them back
J-Bar
Member
Please avoid painting with too broad a brush.
There are good people in the BATFE. One of my best friends is a retired agent.
They have to follow orders just like those in the armed forces. I'm sure many don't like the orders they are given.
It's easy for us to say they should resign rather than carry out orders with which they disagree. Tougher to do in real life.
Place the blame where it lies...at the policy making level, not the field agent level.
There are good people in the BATFE. One of my best friends is a retired agent.
They have to follow orders just like those in the armed forces. I'm sure many don't like the orders they are given.
It's easy for us to say they should resign rather than carry out orders with which they disagree. Tougher to do in real life.
Place the blame where it lies...at the policy making level, not the field agent level.
of course not all ATF agents are bad people....heck, there are even cases where an agent was begging for permission to make an arrest...and being subsequently told to stand down
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-0615-gunrunner,0,732245.story
Deanimator
Member
The overwhelming body of evidence indicates that you're not just wrong, but COLOSSALLY wrong.
Past investigations into the behavior of individual agents indicates that they seem to have a lot of fun doing what they do, legal or not.
EVERY individual is PERSONALLY responsible for his own actions, and for obeying the law. "I was just following orders" is no more of an excuse for a BATFE agent to allow guns to KNOWINGLY be sold to violent felons than it is for the guy in the meat department of your local grocery store to sell rotten hamburger with glass and nails in it.
Stop making excuses for these jackasses. They won't hesitate to come after a citizen for the most trivial of technical offenses, but you want to give them a pass for KILLING somebody, and an LEO at that.
Careers and lives need to be destroyed over this.
not all nazis were evil either.......the bad ones continued to be bad.....the good ones continued to be good......
there were even a nice group who plotted to take down hitler......
your political party, your job, where you live, what you ate for lunch.....have nothing to do with whether you are a good person or not.
usmarine0352_2005
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.
Nice to see it's getting headlines from all the major news outlets and they are all big front page stories.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
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Nice to see it's getting headlines from all the major news outlets and they are all big front page stories.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
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armoredman
Member
DammitBoy
Member
This +11
This was a concerted effort with an edict from on high to increase the amount of firearms crossing the mexican border by the Obama administration so they could get traction for a new AWB. Nothing less.
For whatever reason the ATF guys act the way they do it is their superiors who are responsible just as a captain of a ship or the commander of an airbase. Your personnel screw up you are relieved of your command if the action of said personnel is not rectified by some Monday morning quarter back comity in agreement with the commanders remeidal actions.
And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.
From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:
Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers
Guatemala is but one of many circumstances.
On July 17, 1980, for the first time in history, drug traffickers actually took control of a nation. It was not just any nation, it was Bolivia, at the time the source of virtually 100 percent of the cocaine entering the United States. The “Cocaine Coup” was the bloodiest in Bolivia’s history. It came at a time that the US demand for cocaine was skyrocketing to the point that, in order to satisfy it, suppliers had to consolidate raw materials and production and get rid of inefficient producers. Its result was the creation of what came to be known as La Corporacion — The Corporation — in essence, the General Motors or OPEC of Cocaine.
Immediately after the coup production of cocaine increased massively until, in short order, it outstripped supply. It was the true beginning of the cocaine and crack “plague” as the media and hack politicians never tire of calling it. July 17, 1980 is truly a day that should live in equal infamy along with December 7th, 1941. There are few events in history that have caused more and longer lasting damage to our nation.
What America was never told, in spite of mainstream media having the information and a prime, inside source who was ready to go public with the story, was that the coup was carried out with the aid and participation of Central Intelligence. The source would also testify and prove that, in order to carry out that coup, the CIA, State and Justice departments had to combine forces to protect their drug dealing assets by destroying a DEA investigation—US v Roberto Suarez, et al. How do I know? I was that inside source.
__________________
And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.
From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:
Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers
Guatemala is but one of many circumstances.
On July 17, 1980, for the first time in history, drug traffickers actually took control of a nation. It was not just any nation, it was Bolivia, at the time the source of virtually 100 percent of the cocaine entering the United States. The “Cocaine Coup” was the bloodiest in Bolivia’s history. It came at a time that the US demand for cocaine was skyrocketing to the point that, in order to satisfy it, suppliers had to consolidate raw materials and production and get rid of inefficient producers. Its result was the creation of what came to be known as La Corporacion — The Corporation — in essence, the General Motors or OPEC of Cocaine.
Immediately after the coup production of cocaine increased massively until, in short order, it outstripped supply. It was the true beginning of the cocaine and crack “plague” as the media and hack politicians never tire of calling it. July 17, 1980 is truly a day that should live in equal infamy along with December 7th, 1941. There are few events in history that have caused more and longer lasting damage to our nation.
What America was never told, in spite of mainstream media having the information and a prime, inside source who was ready to go public with the story, was that the coup was carried out with the aid and participation of Central Intelligence. The source would also testify and prove that, in order to carry out that coup, the CIA, State and Justice departments had to combine forces to protect their drug dealing assets by destroying a DEA investigation—US v Roberto Suarez, et al. How do I know? I was that inside source.
__________________
Deanimator
Member
If you willingly and knowingly take part in a corrupt organization, YOU are corrupt.
It's just as simple as that.
it sure must be nice to have the financial and physical means to never compromise your beliefs.....for anything.....ever.
....most of us are not so fortunate.......and a lot of us have to take jobs where we dont always agree with managements policies.......
i honestly doubt that low level agent has the means to simply up and quit his job.....and hope he finds another one.
On 3/3/11, President Evo Morales vowing that DEA would not be permitted to enter Bolivia, cited the book, La Guerra Falsa (The Big White Lie) as proof of CIA’S use of the War on Drugs to manipulate his and other governments.
When Bolivian president Evo Morales held up the book "La Guerra Falsa" (The Big White Lie) by Michael Levine for the photo that would rocket around the world, claiming that it was proof of DEA and CIA protecting the biggest drug traffickers in the world and using the drug war to manipulate, control and even overthrow governments, he was wrong about one thing: "The Big White Lie" does not blame DEA; it lays the blame exclusively on CIA. [Emphasis added.]
… From author's Introduction of The Big White Lie:
"In these pages I will lead you through the deep cover odyssey that I lived for six years. You will hear the words I heard, witness what I and others did, and learn the real reasons behind our cocaine and crack epidemic — the ones your elected representatives hid from you in secret sessions behind closed doors and a misuse of the secrecy laws that must have had our founding fathers twisting in their graves.
"I will give you a fly-on-the-wall look at how the CIA perverts the American justice system by protecting drug dealers and murderers from prosecution; at how even federal judges and prosecutors alleged to have violated narcotic laws were protected from investigation; at how a beautiful South American woman called 'the Queen of Cocaine,' by Pablo Escobar, responsible for shipping more cocaine into the United States than any one person I had ever known, was able to seduce the CIA into destroying her competitors, protecting her from prosecution, and paying her a small fortune in taxpayer dollars for her 'services'; at how the only ruling government of Bolivia that ever wanted to help DEA defeat their drug barons was paid for its faith in our sincerity with torture and death at the hands of CIA-sponsored paramilitary terrorists under the command of fugitive Nazi war criminals. And finally, you will realize, as I did, the ultimate betrayal of America; how, without the CIA's protection and support the resultant crack/cocaine epidemic might never have occurred.
"Without further ado, enter the inner sanctum of the biggest, whitest, deadliest lie of them all: the war on drugs."
SKY Writes; Once upon a time I was having supper with a rather high ranking Guatemalan Air Force Officer and we were discussing the fall of the Soviet Union. It was well known at the time you could buy Russian state of the art fighter jets with spare engines for $4 million bucks. We both agreed that 4 million for a 25 million dollar aircraft was one hell of a deal. But he was told our state department would not let them ( Guatemalan supposedly sovereign Government) purchase these aircraft because we (the U.S.) supplied the foreign aid and we were not buying no stinkin Russian aircraft even if they were $20 million cheaper than what the U.S. was selling them..We laughed and at the time it really was funny but....We as average citizens have no idea of the power our country has over Central and South America countries.
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/no...es-former-dea-agent-s-book-send-message-world
Again we need a major overhaul of many government agencies not just the ATF. Will it happen; you decide......If just 10% of the whistle blowers that have come forward over the years are telling the truth ( they usually bring documents with them) then the sordid tales that have been told are enough to make a grown man cry. THERE ARE NO NOBLE WARS, ONLY NOBLE WARRIORS.
When Bolivian president Evo Morales held up the book "La Guerra Falsa" (The Big White Lie) by Michael Levine for the photo that would rocket around the world, claiming that it was proof of DEA and CIA protecting the biggest drug traffickers in the world and using the drug war to manipulate, control and even overthrow governments, he was wrong about one thing: "The Big White Lie" does not blame DEA; it lays the blame exclusively on CIA. [Emphasis added.]
… From author's Introduction of The Big White Lie:
"In these pages I will lead you through the deep cover odyssey that I lived for six years. You will hear the words I heard, witness what I and others did, and learn the real reasons behind our cocaine and crack epidemic — the ones your elected representatives hid from you in secret sessions behind closed doors and a misuse of the secrecy laws that must have had our founding fathers twisting in their graves.
"I will give you a fly-on-the-wall look at how the CIA perverts the American justice system by protecting drug dealers and murderers from prosecution; at how even federal judges and prosecutors alleged to have violated narcotic laws were protected from investigation; at how a beautiful South American woman called 'the Queen of Cocaine,' by Pablo Escobar, responsible for shipping more cocaine into the United States than any one person I had ever known, was able to seduce the CIA into destroying her competitors, protecting her from prosecution, and paying her a small fortune in taxpayer dollars for her 'services'; at how the only ruling government of Bolivia that ever wanted to help DEA defeat their drug barons was paid for its faith in our sincerity with torture and death at the hands of CIA-sponsored paramilitary terrorists under the command of fugitive Nazi war criminals. And finally, you will realize, as I did, the ultimate betrayal of America; how, without the CIA's protection and support the resultant crack/cocaine epidemic might never have occurred.
"Without further ado, enter the inner sanctum of the biggest, whitest, deadliest lie of them all: the war on drugs."
SKY Writes; Once upon a time I was having supper with a rather high ranking Guatemalan Air Force Officer and we were discussing the fall of the Soviet Union. It was well known at the time you could buy Russian state of the art fighter jets with spare engines for $4 million bucks. We both agreed that 4 million for a 25 million dollar aircraft was one hell of a deal. But he was told our state department would not let them ( Guatemalan supposedly sovereign Government) purchase these aircraft because we (the U.S.) supplied the foreign aid and we were not buying no stinkin Russian aircraft even if they were $20 million cheaper than what the U.S. was selling them..We laughed and at the time it really was funny but....We as average citizens have no idea of the power our country has over Central and South America countries.
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/no...es-former-dea-agent-s-book-send-message-world
Again we need a major overhaul of many government agencies not just the ATF. Will it happen; you decide......If just 10% of the whistle blowers that have come forward over the years are telling the truth ( they usually bring documents with them) then the sordid tales that have been told are enough to make a grown man cry. THERE ARE NO NOBLE WARS, ONLY NOBLE WARRIORS.
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Deanimator
Member
It sure must be nice to have the ability to put mere financial considerations over human life.
"Policies" which are FELONIES, and which in fact led to MULTIPLE DEATHS.
The one time a superior instructed me to do something which would likely have gotten somebody killed, I actively subverted his order.
Yeah, what's innocent human life compared to you having a job?
Is there ANY limit to this concept for you? If one of the supervisors who perpetrated this atrocity ordered a subordinate to kill one of the whistleblowers so that he couldn't testify, should he do it? And don't you DARE say it couldn't happen, because that's EXACTLY what happened in the Chicago PD SOS scandal. The ringleader of the Chicago PD home invasion/kidnapping gang tried to arrange the contract murder of some of his co-conspirators so that they couldn't testify against him.
You are upholding the most profound corruption of law enforcement, up to and including the deaths of innocent people, and for purely crass material gain.
I regularly stood in front of 200+ basic trainees and told them that they had a DUTY to disobey an illegal order. It's what sets us apart from the guys with lightning bolts on their collars.
But what the heck, I'm sure you could stand in front of the family of that murdered Border Patrol agent and tell them that your paycheck is of FAR greater value than his LIFE.
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your saying the ATF agent killed someone.......HE DIDNT......a scumbag mexican drug lord did......
why stop at the ATF agent.....why not go after the FFLs who sold the guns.....sure, they were told to by the ATF.....but they could have easily not sold them...if they didnt sell the guns, the drug dealers wouldnt have had guns to kill people with......heck.....they may loose their FFL license.....but im sure they can find other jobs.
do some people need to loose their jobs for this fiasco....sure, but not everyone.
Deanimator
Member
"BELIEFS"??? How about FEDERAL LAW?
Can you show me the portion of the relevant laws regarding illegal trafficking in arms which says, "unless you'd lose your job"?
Your value system is indistinguishable from that of the "flash mobs" currently terrorizing the public in Chicago. You're going to "get paid", regardless of the LAW, never mind mere right and wrong. Innocent human life isn't even a consideration for you.
Deanimator
Member
Hey, I didn't kill that snitch! Sammy the Bull did... with the heater I GAVE him.
Try THAT one in court.
Deanimator
Member
In fact, I would NOT have made the sales and would have eagerly told the BATFE to pound sand. But then I'm not one to trust the employees of an agency which once made an OFFICIAL TRAINING VIDEO on how to LIE UNDER OATH.
The FFLs have a viable coercion defense. Not the BATFE types. They were ACTIVE and WILLING participants.
Good thing about all this stuff; more and more people are becoming aware of ill doing and are wanting a change. The problem is the bureaucrats run everything and in many instances tell our newly elected government officials how and what they can do.
Like an assistant under secretary of state once said to me when asked what he thought of the new Politically appointed Secretary of State, his response was, " Just another old man in an old suit who might last 4 years and then he will go back to some corporation; I will still be here taking care of business". Not his exact words but that is as close as I can remember what he said. Again unless some of the big boys on capital hill insist on a full blown investigation there will be a few sacrificial lambs toasted for public consumption and it will be business as usual for the puppet masters.
Like an assistant under secretary of state once said to me when asked what he thought of the new Politically appointed Secretary of State, his response was, " Just another old man in an old suit who might last 4 years and then he will go back to some corporation; I will still be here taking care of business". Not his exact words but that is as close as I can remember what he said. Again unless some of the big boys on capital hill insist on a full blown investigation there will be a few sacrificial lambs toasted for public consumption and it will be business as usual for the puppet masters.
Deanimator
Member
Fortunately, there's some REAL political hay to be made here, including the possible elimination of Holder. Hopefully that drives this investigation far enough to accomplish something tangible.
I don't care what their motivations are as long as they do the right thing.
atblis
Member
Sounds about right to me.
lemaymiami
Member
Anyone prepping for the upcoming congressional festiviities (otherwise known as hearings..) should read Bonfire of the Vanities (not sure of the author) or watch the movie.... Everything in the court scenes in that entertainment is similar to what I actually saw attending real court sessions for many years....
I'd like to be wrong here but my expectations about these current hearings aren't very high....
I'd like to be wrong here but my expectations about these current hearings aren't very high....
Watching Fox now. Looks to me that the government is going to make lemonade from these "Fast/Furious" lemons. Looks to me that someone will fall on a sword, but that the main spin will be directed toward a new AWB ban. Crafty little fellers.
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