Kansas City gun shop sued over ammo sale

[mljdeckard]

I agree with those who say the shop was negligent in not checking the I.D., but this makes them responsible for the fraudulent charge, not the subsequent deaths. The person against whom the fraud (the neighbor) was committed was already dead, therefore the victims of the shooting (or their estates) have no standing to press a criminal charge. For a CIVIL charge, they will have a hard time proving that he couldn't have gotten the ammo anywhere else. I'm with Hanafuda. They want to get the shop's insurance company to settle.

Whether or not the shot is ultimately responsible, I bet they are checking EVERYONE'S ID today.

 

[Actinic_Blue]

This may be a little long winded, but merchants are not required to ask for ID for credit card transactions. A store cannot refuse a sale simply because a customer won't show ID along with the credit card. Only if the item being purchased requires ID can a store require ID to be presented. The merchant agreement between stores and credit card companies state that it is a violation of their contract to require ID [visa and mastercard even have a link on their websites to turn in merchants who violate this rule and others]. A merchant can request to see ID for a credit card transaction, but cannot refuse a sale if the customer won't show ID. Think about it: Visa and Mastercard want you to use your credit card a lot, they want it to be fast and convenient. It's not very convenient to have to whip out your ID and prove who you are for every transaction. Your card simply has to be signed to be valid, the store is supposed to match the signatures on the receipt and the card. Unless "See ID" is your signature, that is not a valid card according to your credit card company. The store agreed to these terms when they signed up to be able to process credit card transactions. If there is an indication that a stolen card is being used, which should have been noticed because of the woman's name on the card, then the store should have called it in to their merchant account processor or the bank that issued the card. That is proper procedure. Not saying I agree one way or the other.

 

[lucky_fool]

Little known tidbit:

A merchant cannot require you to show ID when making a credit card purchase according to the Merchant rules from Visa and MasterCard. They can ask for ID but they cannot decline the sale if you refuse to show it.

You can look it up at MC and Visa's websites, but it is conveniently quoted here:
http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htm

Also, I agree with with MP510. It's possible that the guy swiped the card himself, the clerk may have never handled it.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I've used my wife's credit card without her there and they never asked me for any ID. This would have been both in at least TWO big box stores.

I've done it other times at other places. I had her permission, as I was shopping for her. My wife's name could not possibly be taken as a man's name -- it is definately a FEMALE name.

 

[jollypanda]

Wife's Name

Yup - and my wife's name is Chinese - so any merchant would be totally confused if I were to use her card!

 

[WardenWolf]

A merchant cannot require you to show ID when making a credit card purchase according to the Merchant rules from Visa and MasterCard. They can ask for ID but they cannot decline the sale if you refuse to show it.

Except for the whole, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" bit. If you refuse to show ID, they refuse to sell you ammo.

 

[Oddbod]

I bought 1,000 rounds of 9mm & 500 of .45 in Walmart back in May.

Used my CC to do so.
The CC is plainly a UK one & I'm a non-immigrant alien.

I SHOULD have been asked for ID AND proof (which I have) that I am permitted to purchase ammunition as a non US citizen.
No such thing happened.

Does that mean that If I shot my fool self in the foot I could sue Walmart?
I hope not.

 

[TRGRHPY]

Actinic Blue and Lucky: isn't that what I said? Great minds...

 

[jaholder1971]

Except for the whole, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" bit. If you refuse to show ID, they refuse to sell you ammo.

That's their right, but they signed it away when they agreed to take credit cards. Check to terms of service between the merchant and the CC company.

 

[biscuit82]

Safe to assume the shooter got gas with the CC so sue them, the mall for lack of security and the other shoppers for not haveing a CCW to defend themselves with.

going to be settle out of court and more reasons for anti guns to ban ammo

 

[Grey_Mana]

Here in MD, no ID check and no signature are needed if the purchase price is below $20 for credit card and debit card transactions.

Gasoline retailers are explictly exempted from the requirement to check ID or get a signature (pay at the pump laws) in most states (all except New Jersey I think). That was expanded to the general exemption for self-checkout, which grocery stores and hardware stores (like Home Depot) use.

 

[Graymutt]

Just another stupid law suit that shouldn't make it past the I have a idea stage.

 

[Noxx]

Why not sue the cops for NOT having arrested him for the theft long before he made it to the gun store with the card ?

Because you can't. The legal precedent has already been set that the police have no "duty" to protect you. Nifty ain't it.

Sigh.

 

[SSN Vet]

Patricia Reed

I guess every body's assuming the credit card didn't say Pat Reed on it.

 

[jason10mm]

How do they know that the killers didn't have a female buy the ammo? Do they have him on tape? Seems to me they just have a receipt. Unless he signed the bottom and they can match the handwriting or the store had a tape/the cashier remembers the purchase, it seems like a witch hunt.

This is will be one of those deals where the jury awards 100 million dollars to the family and declares the gun store 1% responsible (an easy thing to get folks to agree to). So the killers, who are broke, pay nothing, while the gun store is on the hook for a million.

On a side note, I have "CHECK ID" written on the back of my cards but only 15% of cashiers ask for ID, even when I see them flip it over. I'm sure they are just glazed over and not paying attention. I make a special effort to thank those who do ask as I'm sure there are folks who write "check ID" or leave it blank and then get mad when someone asks for their id

 

[lanternlad1]

"Is there some reason why the mothers of victims always seem to be so stupid and sue happy?"

The mother has lost her child, for whatever reason, and she is angry and vulnerable. It is the fault of whoever goads her into suing by taking advantage of her fragile emotional state that is to blame.

 

[TX1911fan]

This should fail. In order to prove causation, they have to prove that, but for the defendant's acts, the harm would not have occurred. As someone already said, the killer could have payed with cash, so the harm would still have occurred. I say it gets dismissed before it ever goes to trial.

 

[TRGRHPY]

In CO, a person or entity has to be at least 51% liable to get any settlement, so I wonder if that state has anything similar.