Keep It Loaded?

[techrestore]

One month ago, I decided to get a Handgun Permit (indiana) for myself as well as my wife. We purchased a small Kel-TEC 32 cal handgun which is perfect for concealment, and loaded with a hollow point should be fine for defending ourselves (i mentioned to my wife that if she had to ever use it, to send multiple rounds since its of a smaller caliber).

Recently, our bank was robbed -shortly after our morning deposit by gun-point. This brought several questions for us to consider:

Do we keep a round in the kel-tec? remember, there is no safety for this gun. Initially I say no. This gives us a few seconds to consider what would happen if we draw. We are not in the wild-west here...its likely that a person on the offense will draw quicker--since they have nothing to loose! If we do not have a round in the chamber, it gives them at least a 2-second advantage. But, this 2 seconds should always be available in my opinion. If there is a gun to your head, drawing a gun will not stop you from being shot.

To me the 2-seconds is perfect amount of time to quietly (if there is such a thing) load a round in the gun. And keep it concealed. It also allows me to calm my hands (think about the adrenaline shake). If the robber were to start shooting, it would then be quick and an easy decision to open fire (lets hope he has no kevlar- saw full body armor for sale this past week at the gun show).

What do you think: A round in this gun (which increases risk/danger of accidents)...or round ready, giving a 2-second window of question??

 

[El Tejon]

tech, welcome to THR, fellow Hoosier.

The question you asked is one that is best addressed through experience. My answer, IMHO, would be education. Get a class in pistol fighting.

If you do, you'll come to the conclusion that: 1. you should get a bigger gun, 2. the safety resides between one's ears, 3. 2 seconds in a fight can be an enormous amount of time.

If you are around or near Lafayette, be sure to contact me for available classes. My club is having a few this spring at Wildcat Valley Rifle and Pistol club. Come on over. Free tour of the club to all THR members.

Good shooting!

 

[geekWithA.45]

Ditto what El Tejon said.

The only person I know who doesn't keep a round in the chamber is a kung fu master, and I only give him a provisional pass on that based on the notion that if the assaillant is close enough to interfere with him chambering a round, that assaillaint has a whole world full of other problems descending upon him.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Hey, another Hoosier here!

You are on the right track but I think you might want to think about the situation a little deeper.

The first rule of being in a gunfight is to have a gun. It seems like you have that one covered. The problem is that when you need a handgun for defense it is an emergency situation. Chamber-empty carry requires that you have TWO hand to make the pistol ready to fire. If you are in a struggle with your attacker or are injured in either of your two hands or arms your handgun is completely useless. Additionally during an attack your stress level may not facilitate reliable manipulation of your tiny pistol. Automatics can have feeding malfunctions by nature of their design and you complicate the situation by forcing your first shot to be dependant on your being able to chamber a round under extreme stress.

The Keltec P32 has a very long trigger pull. The chances of it being pulled inadvertently are VERY low. Keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire and you will be fine. Your pistol will not fire on its own.

Take El Tejon up on his offer for local training opportunities. I live just North East of Indy and would also be willing to get together with you at my range to show you why carrying with a round in the chamber is important.

-smn

 

[tc300mag1]

The above posts are right . you will probley want a more powerful pistol. Take a defensive class and they will tell you a empty chamber gun is fastest and easyest way to get you self killed.

 

[cordex]

If you live near Boone county, Ken Campbell of the Boone County Sheriff department often hosts slightly more advanced training courses that might be useful to take after you get your basic handgun skills down.

In addition to training, I advise you and your wife to practice, practice, practice. Buy lots of ammo and use it to practice the things you learned from your instructors.

FWIW, I'm in central Indiana.

 

[RandyB]

Greetings fellow Hoosier. I agree 100% with El Tejon
observations. I carry a Kel-Tec .32 as well, though it is a back-up "better than nothing" gun. I keep mine loaded with one in the chamber in a Desanti pocket holster. If you carry your loaded, get a holster than you can carry easy and don't carry anything else in that pocket. I have heard of a guy who's keychain fired his kel-tec when it was in his pocket. If you are in S. Indiana, the Floyd Co./New Albany police offer a class on handguns.

 

[techrestore]

Thanks for the ADVICE

I just emailed my wife the link to this forum to look at the responses. Our conclusion for now:

Is to buy a different gun for concealment that we can feel safe having one chambered. It would make all the difference to me if there was some type of device to make it a bit safer. Thats just me! -

Thanks for the input.

 

[artherd]

Step1: Get a Glock in 9mm (maybe their subcompact?) and/or keep the Kel-tec. Either way, get a GOOD holster that completely covers the trigger.

Step2: Both of you Get training. Defensive Handgun, CCW, low-light, etc.


techrestore: Glocks at least are VERY safe when chambered. They just WILL NOT fire unless the tirgger is pulled. They won't fire if you bang it on the counter, they won't fire if you drop it out of your car while speeding (though I don't recomend you try that

They have 3 internal safetys that are all activated by placing your finger on the trigger just before you start your actual trigger pull. They're actually far safer than a revolver, and safer than almost all guns that have the vestegial 'external safety'.

 

[El Tejon]

tech, the safety of anything is dependent upon the user. Education (software) trumps (a little euchre analogy) gear (hardware).

Once trained your confidence level will rise as one understands what works and what does not. The device making the weapon safer will be you.

School first, weapon next, support gear after that. Concealment is dependent upon a good holster and a good belt. With such an arrangement, many here on THR that carry full-size 1911s (including yours truly).

 

[MarkDido]

I've been carrying my P-32 for more than 2 years now with a round chambered. I use a Don Hume pocket holster which completely covers the trigger.

As stated above, the P-32 should be the ONLY thing in that pocket.

 

[45+]

Congratulations techrestore on taking responsibility for your family’s defense.

ShackleMeNot is correct about the first rule of a gunfight. A .32 beats a ballpoint pen all to pieces in my book.

And as El Tejon and others suggested, get some training.

And cordite is right, practice, practice, practice. Practice drawing (unloaded gun). Practice pointing (unloaded gun). Practice loading and unloading (pointed in a safe direction). Practice dry-firing. Practice live firing (at the range). Practice, practice, practice.

You will probably change what, how, and when you carry over the next few years. Everyone I know has made some changes after getting training, talking with others that carry, or actually (or nearly) using their CCW. You will not get it all right the first time probably, but you have taken the first steps, and you can make improvements as you learn what works for you and your wife.

If most of us knew we were going to be in gunfight today, we would stay home, go around it, or go in with something better than a handgun with 10-20 rounds of ammo. If only my customers understood, I could carry better armament with me all the time. But some of them (and the folks at Wally World, the bank, the grocery store, etc.) do not understand, so I settle for legal CCW of the biggest thing I can COMFORTABLE carry, conceal, and shoot on a daily basis.

I personally carry a spare tire in my car (with air in it), along with a couple of cans of Fix-A-Flat. I carry a CCW and a Back Up Gun for exactly the same reasons. I keep a round in the chamber in both guns. I am grateful that my wife has her own permit and CCW. We carry the same caliber most of time when we are out together so we can share ammo, if necessary. We talk about episodes that we hear about in the news so we have a plan if we are caught up in something similiar.

You probably will not do this exactly the way the rest of us do it (we do not even do it the same way). But you have made a good start. I encourage you to keep legal, keep proficient, keep packin'...

 

[TallPine]

They're [Glocks] actually far safer than a revolver

How do you figure that......

A modern double action revolver will absolutely not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

Or are you comparing a Glock to an 1873 Colt SAA ?

 

[El Tejon]

Wait a tick! 45+ sounds/reads familiar?!?!

 

[Mulliga]

If you like concealability, a nice .380 autoloader (Bersa Thunder, PPK, etc.) would be perfect for ya. Easy and safe to carry with one in the pipe, too.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

techrestore, welcome. When I knew zip about firearms, it was a forum like this (TheFiringLine.Com) that initially provided me and my wife with lots of wise info.

Lots of great advice above. With respect, I've never met a trainer or experienced hand who would carry a double action pistol without a chambered round. As noted above, if you need it you may not only lack the time to chamber the round, but you could very easily forget to do so in the heat of the moment.

Also consider the Kahr 9mm and .40's. Best advice is to go to a good range, and rent a few likely pistol prospects. Best way to buy a gun is to try it out first ... different pistols function better or worse for each individual. Don't know about these days, but a couple years ago I couldn't hit squat with a Glock. OTOH, the Kahr, Sig, H&K were just fine.

Good luck, and again ... welcome to a fine fraternity of folks who share your belief in individual freedom, and personal responsibility.

Regards from TX

 

[artherd]

How do you figure that......

A modern double action revolver will absolutely not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

Or are you comparing a Glock to an 1873 Colt SAA ?

Drop safety. The trigger-safety in the Glock preventing angular forces from acting on the trigger.

Ok, maybe 'marginally safer' than a revolver would be better termonoligy.

 

[NukemJim]

techrestore:

IMHO the previos posts have been absolutely wonderful. Definetly training first.

When/if you decide to upgrade/supplement your firearm may I suggest you consider revolvers with a concealed hammer. S&W makes the Centenial series ( avoid the lightweight .357's, the recoil is extremely bad ) and I believe that Taurus has started to as well.

Great for pocket carry, many holsters/accessories available, more resistant to lint, extremely safe, simple to use, failure drill is instinctive, and unlike a 1911 if you pick your clothing correctly you can start the gunfight with your hand on your gun.

The above is my personal opinoin only and as always I could be wrong.

NukemJim

 

[TamThompson]

I second what Mark said. I have a Keltec .32 as a back-up to my Glock 30 (and as a primary/sole gun when I'm running/cycling/mountain biking/hiking), and I have that same Don Hume leather pocket holster.

Since the Keltec HAS no external safety, you need to carry it in a holster that COMPLETELY covers the trigger guard--the Don Hume does that. That way, you can't stick your hand in your pocket and absent-mindedly shoot yourself. Or, at least, it would be difficult to do.

Once you get the holster, practice drawing and dry-firing the unloaded Keltec from that holster so that if you ever have to draw in a real situation, you'll know just what to do.

You will need those two seconds if some thugs jumps out from behind a wall or a bush and grabs your arm. (That's also why I carry a Spyderco knife on my nongun side--for weapon retention, as it's called when you stab someone who's got your gun hand.)

 

[roscoe]

Just thought I would add that the P32 sometimes malfunctions with hollowpoints. The .32 round has a bit of a rim extending outside the diameter of the case, and sometimes that rim can get stuck in the groove at the base of the adjacent cartridge when the rounds are given the extra space in the magazine afforded by hollowpoints. This will totally jam the gun. It is known as rimlock and P32s, great guns that they are, are known for it. Kel Tec sells a little doodad to put in your magazine to prevent it, but most P32 owners just use fmj (round-point) bullets because the .32 is no great shakes on penetration, and you don't want a hollowpoint expanding before it gets deep enough. I have shot nearly 1000 rounds through my P32 and never had a case of rimlock with fmj bullets.

Having said that, to address your question I carry a P32 all the time with one in the pipe, in a DeSantis pocket holster that covers the trigger and never worry about it. I can envision many situations where I could not afford both hands to chamber a round, nor the time. You mentioned safeties - in fact I never use a safety on any of my handguns because my feeling is that when you need the gun you will be damn lucky to remember to pull the trigger, let alone fumble with a safety. The only time you should worry about a safety, in my opinion, is if the hammer is kept back on an automatic, like a single-action 1911 (which I do not own). I sometimes carry a double-action CZ75, but with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

I second the idea of a revolver with a concealed, hammer. My wife has a S&W model 38, which has a 'shrouded' hammed that can be cocked, but won't snag clothing. My feeling is that a revolver is perfect for someone who worries about things like safeties - it is pretty hard to fire one accidentally.

 

[TamThompson]

I think you can get around the rimlock problem with .32 HP's by being very careful with your magazine loading. I always load the magazine with it tilted bullet-side up, so that each round goes all the way to the back.

 

[OF]

If I was forced to carry a .32, I'd carry FMJ. You want to ensure you get adequate penetration first and foremost. No .32 hollowpoint I am aware of will penetrate deeply enough to be reliably effective...and "reliably effective" is really stretching it for a .32 any way you slice it. Your gun is what's commonly refered to as a 'belly gun'. It's only going to be of use in very tight quarters, and then only with exemplary shot placement. I'd seriously recommend FMJ ammunition...and at the risk of sounding crude, stuff it in his face and pull the trigger as fast and often as you can.

Another 2 Cents: Keep a round in the chamber and keep the gun in a holster. If it's in a pocket, use a pocket holster. They not only keep the gun upright, but break up the outline to aid in concealment. A carried gun should be carried ready...for the same reason you don't try to put your seatbelt on right before you get into an accident: not enough time.

Get trained. Bring enough money to the class that you can buy a bigger gun on the way home

- Gabe (who packs a full-size 1911 in .45 and a spare mag every day)

PS: Welcome to you and your wife from all of us here at THR!

 

[Standing Wolf]

We are not in the wild-west here...

People were probably a good deal safer in the old west.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

A carried gun should be carried ready...for the same reason you don't try to put your seatbelt on right before you get into a an accident: not enough time.

That's a very good analogy.
-smn

 

[D_Burchfield]

Quote-"Keep It Loaded?"

Absolutely!

For all the reasons mentioned already, 2 seconds could be the difference. I also agree that training and practice will help you become more comfortable with your chosen weapon. I don't own a P32 but several friends do and they alwas carry theirs in a holster which covers the trigger. My carry is a 9mm single action auto and I always have one in the pipe. Locked and cocked is my take on the subject

Welcome and Best,

Doug