What am I missing in this 'training'? 'drills'?

[wtr100]

I do IL CCW training – more for fun than anything else. I’m blessed to have rural property with a safe range so my classes draw from holster and do quite a lot of shooting. It’s nothing fancy just a place outside with 30’ tall hill and lots on nothing behind it.

Now that folks in IL have their CCW I’d like to offer groups of four or less the chance to spend a few hours running drills.

I’m thinking of something that can be done in a morning or afternoon maybe 150 rounds. Actually drawing their pistol from their holster. Loading , reloading maybe with a little stress from a clock added.

Looking for thoughts on the outline I have below. What is too much time spent on? What is too little?


1. Full scale airsoft Beretta M9 replica and provided holsters for draw and fire drills - 15 minutes. Just enough to make sure folks have some level of competence.

2. Warm Up - 25 rounds - AP2 target @15 feet (small NRA Tombstone)
===-5 rounds slow fire
===-5 rounds two handed strong 10 seconds
===-5 rounds two handed weak 10 seconds
===-5 rounds right handed 10 seconds
===- 5 rounds left handed 10 seconds

3. Inside the Home drills - 50 rounds - 21 feet - B27
==-Unloaded on bench, pick up load and fire 5 rounds in 18 seconds – two times
==-Unloaded on bench , pick up, load, move to cover, five rounds from right side of cover , reload five rounds from left side of cover 30 seconds – two times
==-Unloaded on bench , pick up, load, move to cover, five rounds from cover kneeling , reload five rounds from cover standing 25 seconds – two times

4. Outside the Home drills - 50 rounds 21 feet - B-27
-Draw and fire two rounds 6 seconds – repeat 10 times reload as needed.
-Air Marshall drill - http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html

 

[conw]

I might give them a taste of longer ranges at the end and less focus on reloads. Statistically per a convo I had yesterday with Claude Werner there is slim chance of reloading for most civilian defensive shootings.

Sorry if I missed any dry fire but if you don't have any it might be a good idea to include some for three reasons

1) address problems showing up early in live fire with new shooters before moving on
2) they still get reps, but 150 rounds could be a high live round count for some people, so it's a good compromise you could use to adjust the balance on the fly
3) gives them a tool to practice on their own at home, for free

All in all with the progression and the fact you start from the holster, make it already pretty great I think! Very good work.

 

[Kleanbore]

Five shots in ten seconds sounds awfully slow to me, and so does two shots in six seconds. A charging assailant could move thirty feet between shots in the first case and forty five feet in the second, and it may take four shots to stop him.

 

[wtr100]

Five shots in ten seconds sounds awfully slow to me, and so does two shots in six seconds. A charging assailant could move thirty feet between shots in the first case and forty five feet in the second, and it may take four shots to stop him.

quite true I think they're slow on purpose, to allow folks to get a sight picture again and such

Full disclosure I took those drills from Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program

http://mqp.nra.org/documents/pdf/education/training/marksmanship/qualbook.pdf



The times in the Air Marshall 'capstone' are plenty quick.

 

[Warp]

quite true I think they're slow on purpose, to allow folks to get a sight picture again and such

You shouldn't need two seconds between shots to get a sight picture.

I mean, a rank novice at the range for the first or second time might, but a shooter with any experience or training or rounds under their belt...no. Not even close. Should be 1 shot per second, absolute slowest, IMO. I'm not much of a shot but at 1 shot per second I can empty a G26 magazine all headshots at 21 feet (square range, no movement, no stress). So assuming a closer distance and/or larger target (which is more 'CCW' realistic) that would be pretty easy.

Draw and fire two rounds should be half that (3 seconds vs 6) as the absolute most IMO, with 2.5 seconds being a pretty good target for most people who haven't done the drill before but are competent in handling their pistol.

If they aren't competent in handling the pistol, drawing, doing things smoothly, not doing anything that violates a safety rule, they probably shouldn't be doing anything on the clock at all yet. Too much motivation to get ahead of themselves.

 

[strambo]

Yes, your times are too slow while the FAM qual will be waaayyyy outside their abilities. 2 extremes.

Is it illegal in IL to have a loaded gun in the home? If so, then I guess there isn't a choice about the gun unloaded to start drills. Otherwise, I don't see the point of them being unloaded.

I like the idea of starting out with airsoft in holsters (could also just start dry-fire) to train and assess their drawing skills before going live.

I like to use the photo-realistic armed targets with the numbered/colored shapes along the side for marksmanship drills. With pasters you can get a ton of mileage out of each target and you are teaching them to only shoot at armed threats. They also have no bullseye, more realistic. They also can have anatomy so you can teach some about terminal ballistics as well and what shot placement really means vs. a generic "vital zone."

http://www.letargets.com/content/cpd-il-carbondale-il-pd-vital-anatomy-qualification-target.asp

 

[wtr100]

The 5 shots in 10 seconds are from part of NRA Winchester Pistol Qualification. The target is pretty small , at least to me, it prints on regular sheet of paper. The 10 ring is 2 1/4" and the 8 is less the 3 1/2" the rest looks like a tombstone that's maybe 8" x 5"

What they're looking to accomplish is

Develop the skills needed to participate in NRA Action Pistol
competition, as well as the basic skills required for personal
protection.

This seemed like a good warm-up, but you're right it's not terribly challenging for experienced shooters

 

[Warp]

The 5 shots in 10 seconds are from part of NRA Winchester Pistol Qualification. The target is pretty small , at least to me, it prints on regular sheet of paper. The 10 ring is 2 1/4" and the 8 is less the 3 1/2" the rest looks like a tombstone that's maybe 8" x 5"

What they're looking to accomplish is


This seemed like a good warm-up, but you're right it's not terribly challenging for experienced shooters

There's the rub. For general self defense pistol shooting a 2 1/4" target is way too small. Even 8"x5" is too small, really. For a pretty simple representation I think an 8.5"x11" piece of regular old printer paper taped vertically COM/high COM over a photo realistic target (or used to trace a light rectangle on said target you can see up close but not as much from far away) works well. This is at a typical pistol self defense range somewhere between, oh, call it 3-10 yards, mostly 3-7 yards.

But at the same time there is the "accuracy first, speed second...speed first, accuracy never" thing. You don't want people to only ever go for targets that size. Unless maybe they are at 25 yards.

For a single drill, or a single target size and distance, however, with 'CCW' in mind, I' go for a larger target area and shorter time limits.

 

[wtr100]

Strambo - I chose picking up and loading 'stage' is sort of a contrived way to get them to go though loading. You have to understand a lot of these people only fired 30 rounds in their CCW class - since range time is a huge limiting factor for instructors.


I don't think many folks will pass the FAM drill - it's more of a capstone.

When I teach CCW class we spend an hour or so drawing and firing Airsoft. Some folks balked a little at using 'toys' but by the end of Airsoft phase wanted info in buying their own.

One thing I do that's interesting, at least to me, is to put photo copy's of guns and knives on the B27's we use. Whenever I do that the bullet strikes shift towards them.

 

[Warp]

Where are you shooting that you can have people shooting while pivoting 180* between targets??

The differences between that Federal Air Marshall link and the OP are drastic

 

[wtr100]

Where are you shooting that you can have people shooting while pivoting 180* between targets??

The differences between that Federal Air Marshall link and the OP are drastic

I own private agricultural property. There is a natural berm 30 ish feet high. I have insurance to cover liability. There is space for 4 shooters shooting in static lanes and for 1 shooter when we're moving.

I didn't want to cut and paste and format the FAM drill. That usually ends up looking like butt. The way I've seen the FAM drill done is three targets a few feet apart. Beep! Pivot, draw, shoot, shoot, shoot - is there a different setup?

I do appreciate the input. More please!

 

[Warp]

I own private agricultural property. There is a natural berm 30 ish feet high. I have insurance to cover liability. There is space for 4 shooters shooting in static lanes and for 1 shooter when we're moving.

I didn't want to cut and paste and format the FAM drill. That usually ends up looking like butt. The way I've seen the FAM drill done is three targets a few feet apart. Beep! Pivot, draw, shoot, shoot, shoot - is there a different setup?

I do appreciate the input. More please!

The FAM drill says:

"180° pivot. One round each at three targets (twice). Turn left, then right."

I guess you probably have it right. Three targets, one round each. You do it twice, once for each direction you can pivot

 

[strambo]

That is a big advantage to the anatomical targets, when the bullets shift low to the gun, you can point out the "nothing" that was hit anatomically which would stop a determined aggressor. Teach them to focus center chest and out of a string of 5 rounds or so, 1 at least ought to be in the heart.

My point about the FAM qual from a training perspective is it is way too hard. None of them will succeed and your drills leading up to it won't even come close to preparing them for it. You'll end the day on a low note exposing a huge gap between where they ought to be and where they are.

IMHO, any qual is a waste of valuable training time and rounds anyway, pick a capstone event like an informal competition or better yet, a very realistic defensive scenario they each run through with a critique after. You could frame dividers with 2x4s or even PVC and sheets to make walls and (if you haven't used them sooner) break out the photo-realistic targets, or even the 3D Tac-Man targets with clothing. Set up a 3-4 target scenario with at least 1 no-shoot and run them through 1 at a time w/o them seeing it first.

I done this informally with novices. At the end of the training, I'll turn them around and re-arrange my 3 clothed Tac-man targets in some way. When done, I'll yell "threat" and they turn and deal with whatever they see.

 

[strambo]

Warp,

I read that as in facing away 180* and you turn around and engage. They just mean they want to see the agent turn left 180* once and right 180* the other time. Not having targets 180* opposite each other which wouldn't be a 180* turn anyway, but only a 90* turn.

 

[Warp]

Warp,

I read that as in facing away 180* and you turn around and engage. They just mean they want to see the agent turn left 180* once and right 180* the other time. Not having targets 180* opposite each other which wouldn't be a 180* turn anyway, but only a 90* turn.

I think you are right. I edited my post, you may have been too quick.

Targets opposite could be a 180* but only if you engaged one in direction A, then one in direction B, then back to direction A. Not sure why you would choose that for a qual though, some issues there

 

[ACP]

Lots of good replies here.

Personally I would NOT do any warm-up. You don't "warm-up" in a self-defense encounter. Instead, I would do 5-10 jumping jacks, push-ups, burpees, mountain climbers, jackknife sit-ups, and squat jumps one after the other, then draw from concealment and shoot. Gets the heart rate and adrenaline flowing, tests your fine motor skills and visual acuity under stress. Let's you know if you can hit that tiny thumb snap on the holster and thumb release safety on the gun every single time without fail, ever.

I would always draw from concealment using a PACT timer or some such unpredictable signal. You will most likely NOT be the one who decides when to draw, so why give yourself that advantage in practice?

Your distances are good -- also include some very close, retention-type stuff-- 3 to 6 feet.

I would practice strong-hand point shooting only. Shoot while moving sideways and backing up.

And use 3-D targets -- you can make your own out of copy paper boxes, paper bags from the grocery store, large cardboard that you cut down and tape to size, etc. If it can move or bobble (on a stick, swaying in the breeze, hanging from a cord, etc.) all the better. Put a t-short or an old sweatshirt over the box so you can't see your hits. Draw or tape a human face on the "head." Stationary, one-dimensional targets to not exist in real life.

You could also throw in: shooting from sitting, carrying a shopping bag in one hand, no-shoot civilian targets in the way, partially covered targets (i.e. someone standing at your car trunk while you are getting in the driver's side door), etc.

And shoot much, much faster.

 

[ACP]

And for targets, think high in the chest, an 8.5x11" piece of copy paper horizontally just under the throat hollow/clavicle. the lungs and heart are much higher than people think. shoot from the nipples to the collarbone. Anything below the diaphragm is just guts.

for head shots, use a 3x5" index cad above the bridge of the nose and below the hairline. That's where the brain is -- not the sinus cavity or the teeth.

 

[Warp]

And for targets, think high in the chest, an 8.5x11" piece of copy paper horizontally just under the throat hollow/clavicle. the lungs and heart are much higher than people think. shoot from the nipples to the collarbone. Anything below the diaphragm is just guts.

for head shots, use a 3x5" index cad above the bridge of the nose and below the hairline. That's where the brain is -- not the sinus cavity or the teeth.

Triangle between nipples and that throat hollow/clavicles origin is just about right, yes

 

[230RN]

I found it useful to do some running in place and maybe some other aerobic exercise just before before "real" practice. Quit doing it when folks at the range started looking at me funny.

Gets the heart rate up, and as close as possible to the probable SD situation. Maybe you could call it the "Terry Drill."

Would be OK in a training situation to have them do this without surrounding shooters thinking you're weird.

On the other hand, maybe they were looking funny at me because I am weird.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Warp]

I found it useful to do some running in place and maybe some other aerobic exercise just before before "real" practice. Quit doing it when folks at the range started looking at me funny.

Gets the heart rate up, and as close as possible to the probable SD situation. Maybe you could call it the "Terry Drill."

Would be OK in a training situation to have them do this without surrounding shooters thinking you're weird.

On the other hand, maybe they were looking funny at me because I am weird.

Terry, 230RN

Never a bad idea.

We even do it at Appleseed sometimes, for those shooters who are up for it. Just a simple hundred or two hundred yard run that is done on the clock. It really makes the breathing control and cadence shine (if you are correctly employing it as it pertains to rifle marksmanship)

 

[strambo]

for head shots, use a 3x5" index cad above the bridge of the nose and below the hairline. That's where the brain is -- not the sinus cavity or the teeth.

This is too high. The part of the brain you want to aim for is the "mid-brain" which controls conscious functions. Ideally, you'd target the medulla/brain stem at the base of the skull which from head on would be just above the upper lip. Problem is that it is the size of a golf ball.

The next best area of the brain to instantly shut them down is the mid-brain. It lies from just under the nose to about eye level. So the general aim point is below the eyebrows and above the lip. This jives with almost every target marked for a head shot.

Above the eyebrows to the hairline introduces multiple problems, especially for a pistol round. #1, the skull is thick and in this area angled like a helmet or the front slope of a tank. Bullets can glance off. #2, while a bullet in the cranial vault is bad, bad news, a person can survive w/o the frontal lobe so if the bullet gets in the skull high, it may not drop them.

Just above the tip of the nose is fairly centered on the best spot to aim for a head shot. Now, introduce angles vs. a perfect frontal shot and it really gets interesting, the best spot to aim could be low in the cheek...

 

[wtr100]

Another thanks to everyone I have an 8 hour CCW class this weekend with 3 or 4 guys who really don't need it - all Marines with real time 'over there'. Marines make good crash test dummies ...

Like my buddy who's a doctor tells me, 'If this works on you I might try it on my normal patients!'

 

[strambo]

Enjoy the class. Don't make any assumptions about them though. In my experience, they (anyone in the military) probably haven't been trained to shoot a handgun or know more about self-defense law than the average person.

On the topic of training, the best training effect occurs at the "threshold of failure," where they succeed but just barely. Too easy and the trainee is bored (if you find yourself in a class trying to make all headshots for a drill or trying to do something twice as fast, it's too easy.) Too hard and the trainee thinks it is impossible and gives up.

The threshold of failure isn't a point, it is an envelope. At the easy side of the envelope, training is challenging but still not too hard to accomplish. At the hard end, it is very challenging and they almost can't do it, but barely eek it out.

For 1 person, training can be tailored precisely. For a class, the best shooter will be on the easy side of the envelope (but still challenged and improving) and the worst will be struggling on the hard side, but making it.

This is why classes have pre-reqs past beginner, to keep everyone in the failure threshold envelope. Instructors push the good ones faster to make it harder, give extra attention to the ones struggling so they make it.

Your drills are not in the threshold of failure, they are too easy. Until the FAM qual which will be impossible for them. If the drills aren't too easy, it would be due to an unrealistic accuracy standard of the small 2 1/4" bullseye. They have a luxurious amount of time to try and hit a target smaller than the heart or mid-brain.

Self defense is the opposite: the head vital zone is approx 3x5 and the chest zone notebook paper size. The heart is still the size of an orange, mid-brain slightly smaller than that. But, you need to shoot as fast and as much as you can while keeping bullets in the (larger) vital zone. Slow fire on precise targets won't prepare them for that.

I think hitting a 4" circle in a second from 5yds at low ready is a good start for a beginner who has had a basic pistol class (knows stance, grip and basic marksmanship).

 

[wtr100]

I hear you strambo - I was in TacMed class with two of these guys and Shotgun instructor with the other. Two of them were MP's the third was a captain, I hear the other was on Embassy duty and shoots IDPA or IPSIC or some such. At least nobody is bringing a Highpoint - hate those things or maybe they hate me

Nice thing about military students is they pick up on range command and procedures quick.


My 'normal' class is some really boring IL law stuff and some somewhat interesting use of force stuff. Followed by the IL test, 30 rounds into a B-27 at 10 yards or less.

Then we use Airsoft to draw from holster , then dry fire from holster with 'real steel'. We end the day with a couple hours working though NRA Defensive Pistol II. Along the way we work in reloading and malfunctions. Times are slow but the program seems workable.

Defensive Pistol II

Using the NRA method drawing from strong side
holster, and shoot one shot – 5 sec

Drawing from strong side holster, and shoot two shots – 6 sec

Drawing from strong sideholster, and shoot 3 shots - 10 sec

from concealment shoot 3 shots – 10 sec


we go though 100 to maybe 150 rounds doing this. I figure for a lot of these folks it's going to be the most shooting they'll do in a long while so get them to do it when I can.

Defensive Pistol I Qualification is designed to supplement Personal Protection in the Home
courses, while Defensive Pistol II is designed to supplement Personal Protection Outside the
Home. These two Qualification courses help participants become familiar with the pistol/revolver,
and enhance their ability to react in any defensive situation that might arise. Participants should
complete the Pistol Qualification course prior to starting Defensive Pistol I.

 

[g.willikers]

Here's a bunch of courses of fire to play with:
http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/NCCB_4ed_2013.pdf