Kel Tec P32 or P380?

[Wilson 17&26]

Bob 79

While I have nothing official, a Kel-Tec employee, who should know, said they were building 1,000 P-3ATs per week. At that rate there are surely 55,000-60,000 P-3ATs out there that have likely fired more than a million rounds. If the smillies haven’t caused a pistol to self-destruct by now, chances are they won’t. Bullet performance would be more difficult to judge in the real world. I guess you could try to sue Kel-Tec if it took three bullets to kill a BG instead of two All I know is, the report by a second-generation owner is, smillies are still there.

A new claw shaped extractor was being used on some of the last of the generation-one P-3ATs along with a horizontal ejector. None of my P-3ATs have these features and function flawlessly. Either I’m lucky or I’ve done a great job of fine-tuning my Kel-Tec pistols.

Truth be known, my last few Kel-Tecs have worked so well, I now devote most of my tinker-time to cosmetics (note silver trigger below), not function. I miss the old days.

 

[hgray14]

KEL-TEC P32 vs P3AT

My P3AT kicks a little bit more but it isn't bad. As far as reliability goes there are a couple of key points to make about your defensive guns. First of all, if you have probably trained on how to clear a malfunction than it doesn't really matter what you carry as long as you are comfortable with it. I can clear a type one, type two or even a type three in less time than it takes most people to look down at their gun and figure out that something is wrong. If you are going to carry you owe it to yourself, your loved ones and the rest of us to know your gun so well that your chances of having a negligent discharge are minimal. Second of all, gun fights don't last into the 100+ round range. Most gun fights only last for a round or two (unless you are law enforcement or military in which case these little pea-shooters are going to be no closer than your second back-up) so all you need to do is make sure that your gun can fire at least one magazine without malfunctioning (don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle; if you get a 'jam' you need to transition to an alternate weapon) in a stressful environment. What I mean by this is take your gun and shoot it while you are moving, shoot it one handed, shoot it off balance. You are not going to be standing at the bench at a range when you get in a gun battle. You also aren't going to get to a second magazine (does anyone really carry more than one mag for these deep concealment back-up guns?) so who cares if it will fire 100 rounds without a malfunction. Your conceal carry or home defense guns should be clean! After practicing with them clean them. If you don't clean your hunting rifle, your trap gun or your plinking gun who cares; your defensive gun is the one that is going to save your life so it needs to be clean and ready to go when you really need it. That is why I say it only needs to be able to not malfunction for at least one magazine. One other thing to remember. Most times that a gun is used in self defense it is never fired. This means that if you are more comfortable with something that is small caliber or that isn't all that reliable it is still better than nothing since just the sight of it is going to send 99.9% of the thugs running away. Nobody looks at a .32 pointed at them and says, "that isn't a big caliber, I think I will take my chances". No way, they start to duck and run, like any of us would. If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without. Just learn how to clear malfunctions quickly and you will be just about as good as new.

just a few thoughts...

Houston

 

[brett30030]

Cough, Cough, that one came out of the cobwebs.

I agree that having a weapon adds an intimidation factor, but i would have to disagree that a "crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without". I don't want to give any quarter to a criminal, but if you pull a gun, shoot and miss (or misfire), followed by a jam, you are asking to be murdered. What if the BG's original intention was a simple robbery, but when you pulled and miss (or misfired), you just elevated the situation. A well functioning, reliable weapon is the responsibility of anyone that carries. The life you lose may not be yours, but one of those you are with. I have no personal beef with you, but i find your thoughts irresponsible at best.:banghead:

And that is my few thoughts,

 

[Juna]

I'm looking at both of these pistols, too, for my wife and for me for deep cover CCW. Basically, from what I've read the P32 seems to get the best reviews & be the most reliable & fun to shoot. People seem to think the P-3AT has too much recoil (small, light gun with a decently potent caliber).

The down side to the P32 is, I was at WalMart the other day, and .32 ACP (~$20 for 50 rds) is about twice as expensive as .380 ACP (~$20 for 100 rds).

As far as I can tell, that's the only real advantage of the P-3AT that I can see. Yes, it's a larger caliber, but only marginally so. For it's intended purpose (an in your face, up your gut gun) it wouldn't make much difference.

Anyone else have ammo price comparisons between the two?

 

[pocketgun]

My P3AT kicks a little bit more but it isn't bad. As far as reliability goes there are a couple of key points to make about your defensive guns. First of all, if you have probably trained on how to clear a malfunction than it doesn't really matter what you carry as long as you are comfortable with it. I can clear a type one, type two or even a type three in less time than it takes most people to look down at their gun and figure out that something is wrong. If you are going to carry you owe it to yourself, your loved ones and the rest of us to know your gun so well that your chances of having a negligent discharge are minimal. Second of all, gun fights don't last into the 100+ round range. Most gun fights only last for a round or two (unless you are law enforcement or military in which case these little pea-shooters are going to be no closer than your second back-up) so all you need to do is make sure that your gun can fire at least one magazine without malfunctioning (don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle; if you get a 'jam' you need to transition to an alternate weapon) in a stressful environment. What I mean by this is take your gun and shoot it while you are moving, shoot it one handed, shoot it off balance. You are not going to be standing at the bench at a range when you get in a gun battle. You also aren't going to get to a second magazine (does anyone really carry more than one mag for these deep concealment back-up guns?) so who cares if it will fire 100 rounds without a malfunction. Your conceal carry or home defense guns should be clean! After practicing with them clean them. If you don't clean your hunting rifle, your trap gun or your plinking gun who cares; your defensive gun is the one that is going to save your life so it needs to be clean and ready to go when you really need it. That is why I say it only needs to be able to not malfunction for at least one magazine. One other thing to remember. Most times that a gun is used in self defense it is never fired. This means that if you are more comfortable with something that is small caliber or that isn't all that reliable it is still better than nothing since just the sight of it is going to send 99.9% of the thugs running away. Nobody looks at a .32 pointed at them and says, "that isn't a big caliber, I think I will take my chances". No way, they start to duck and run, like any of us would. If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without. Just learn how to clear malfunctions quickly and you will be just about as good as new.

just a few thoughts...

Houston

So let me get this straight: It is important to know how to clear a malfunction, but a spare mag is a waste of effort because there will be no time to reload anyway. If I don't have time to reload, where am I going to get the time to clear a malfunction? But hold on, why worry about clearing it at all? After all, according to your post, it need not even be reliable for carry! And if it need not be reliable, why bother ever cleaning it, which you seem to think is so very important?

I am really trying to understand how you could make a post so incredibly ill-considered. I have come to the conclusion that you cannot possibly be serious and are just playing for a reaction.

 

[jlh26oo]

If you are a little old man living in the hood and all you have is a piece of crap .25 caliber that jams every other round (but that is all you can afford) you are still better with it than without.

Ahem...

don't call it a 'jam'...a 'jam' is something that can't be fixed quickly or easily, a malfunction is. You can clear a malfunction during battle

SOLID 1st post, but had to burn you on that one lol (sorry). Just about everything you say makes sense to me though. Malfunctions they are. Only points with which I disagree are reliability standards. For me to trust anything, for any number of rounds, I need to see it demonstrate a level of reliability several times over what will likely be required of it (ie I appreciate ridiculously arbitrary yet impressive G torture tests, do have a problem with "carry alot, shoot a little" brand mottos, and want to have the option to shoot any gun I own, as much as I care to*.



*AAYMFMMV

 

[kokapelli]

Having owned two P-32s and now three P-3ATs, I can't figure out why the P-32 has a reputation as being more reliable than a P-3AT?

IMO if anything, the P-3AT is more reliable than the P-32, because of the possibility of getting "rimlock" in any 32acp.

Yes the early P-3ATs had some problems, but so did the early P-32s.

The P-3ATs that are being produced today are every bit as reliable as a P-32 and don't have the possibility of "rimlock".

As far as recoil is concerned, I find the P-3AT to have heavier but not as sharp recoil as the P-32.

 

[Headless]

If a gun 'malfunctions' or 'jams' or anything of the like when firing only 100 rounds out of it, i am damn sure not betting my life on it. I've fired over 500 rounds out of my 9mm S&W, dirty and clean, solid lead and JHP in a row without cleaning, and never had a 'jam' or 'malfunction'. I've fired ~7000rounds out of it without a single 'malfunction' or 'jam'. That's what i'd bet my life on. If you pull a gun and it jams or 'malfunctions' or whatever you want to call it, you'd better start praying the BG isn't stronger than you or armed because you are going down for the count. When someone realises you just tried to kill them and failed, they are going to go positively apesh** on you. This is a great reason why people don't carry rimfire .22's for personal defense; they are horrifically unreliable (in addition to being woefully underpowered as far as immediate stops go, though they'll kill people dead just fine. Slowly.) Sure, i've fired 10 or 20 mags of .22 rimfires from my semi 22A without any problems, but then i've fired 4 magazines in a row with 3-4 FTF's or FTE's.
Have fun trying to clear a stovepipe/FTE that's stuck in the chamber while some maniac stabs you repeatedly in the throat.

 

[kokapelli]

Headless, I have a little different take on it.

I usually shoot 29 rounds out of my P-3AT each week when I go to the range.

That's four seven round magazines (mine uses magazines) and the one that was in the chamber=29.

I clean the pistol when I get home and do the same thing next week.

I would guess that I have done this at least 200 times with one of my P-3ATs without a failure.

This proves to my satisfaction that this pistol is as reliable as it's going to get for a self defense siduation.

Being able to shoot 100 rounds without a failure is not a factor for me.

I can't imagine getting into a 100 round shoot out in a self defense siduation and even if it did occure, I never carry 100 rounds in my pocket anyway.

My P-3AT has been proven over 200 times for my needs.

 

[pocketgun]

Mine uses magazines too!

kokapelli, you do about the same thing I do. I usually shoot 50 rounds through my P-3AT at the range. If I am going to shoot more, I stop and spend about 5 minutes wiping down the ramp/chamber and re-lubing. No failures in over 1000 rounds with this method. During reliability testing I did the same thing but stopped after 25 rounds. I am quite confident that my pistol will function as desired should I ever need it. The most ammo I ever have on me (for my P-3AT) is 14 rounds, BTW.

Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

 

[kokapelli]

Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

pocketgun, "and fits comfortably in my pocket' are the magic words.

I agree 100%.

 

[Headless]

S&W 3913 (if you're a bigger guy) or s&w CS9 if smaller.
mine use magazines too, thanks for catching the totally unrelated grammatical error in my post

 

[pocketgun]

Both the 3913 and CS9 are a good bit bigger than my Kel-Tec P-11, and that is too big for comfortable pocket carry for me, because it prints "gun" and is large enough that it is prone to snagging during a draw. Stuffing a compact version of a combat pistol in a pocket is not the same thing as having a pistol designed for pocket carry.

The only true pocket pistol in 9x19 I know of is the Rohrbaugh R9. The Kahr PM9 and MK9, as well as the upcoming Kel-Tec PF-9, are on the large side for pocket carry , but will work given the right type of pocket and holster. I wouldn't bet that any of the four just listed could make it through 500 rounds without a cleaning or malfunction (when dirty), but then again, that was never what they were designed to do.

IMO, if you want the convenience of pocket carry, you have to accept the limits of what can be done with very small size and light weight, and compensate by keeping your pocket pistol clean and lubed. If you are unwilling to perform a simple routine cleaning after shooting, then a Glock or some other combat design is a better choice, but is best carried on a belt.

 

[Headless]

I have no problem cleaning my guns and do every time i fire more than 10 rounds out of them at the range. I actually enjoy cleaning my guns.

My S&W model 642 is bigger than the CS9 (though with a slightly smaller grip/different shape) and is widely accepted as one of the most perfect pocket carry guns around. I don't see how you can think of the CS9 as too big. To each his own, i suppose.

 

[up_onus]

heck,

they are small!!! carry both!!!!

 

[kokapelli]

Both the 3913 and CS9 are a good bit bigger than my Kel-Tec P-11, and that is too big

Does anyone know how thick the CS9 actually is?

I have been interesed in the Chiefs special CS9, but have not been able to find out how thick they are.

 

[pocketgun]

I think the CS9 is too big just on the weight alone. It is 20.8 ounces unloaded, so figure it is about 24 ounces when loaded to full 7+1 capacity. That is a lot of weight to carry in a pocket for any length of time, and I am in the habit of being armed whenever I am outside my residence. IMO, 24 ounces means a holster is an absolute must, and the already thick profile of the pistol now must be made larger by surrounding it in leather. Hopefully, the holster will hide the shape of the gun, which is going to be pretty obvious otherwise. I say the holster is mandatory due to the fact a pistol that is 1.5 pounds loaded is going to wear away the insides of your pockets in short order without one. At least the holster will delay this wear. Now add the difficulty of making a smooth, quick draw due to the tight confines (CS9, holster, hand) in the pocket and it just seems a whole lot easier to carry a firearm of this size in a concealed belt holster of some kind.

I am not a revolver guy, but the ones I have met on the gun boards tell me there is no comparison in ease of carry between a 642 and a P-3AT (for example). Those that go this route do so for the somewhat more potent ammo and the inherent reliability of the revolver design. Also, the shape is differrent (as you mentioned) and the unloaded weight is 15 ounces. Figure loaded weight will be some 7.5 ounces less than the CS9 - about the weight of my unloaded P-3AT difference!

As you said, we each have our own criteria for what we feel comfortable with, and if you can pocket a CS9 more power to you (literally)!

 

[MCgunner]

Show me a 9mm auto that is capable of firing 500 rounds in a row without malfunctions or cleaning and fits comfortably in my pocket and I will buy it.

You'd better run out and get a Kel Tec P11, then. I've got one that's seen 10K+ and never jammed/malfunctioned. I have cleaned the gun between range sessions, though, but I would imagine it'd go 500 rounds no problem without cleaning. It never is that dirty when I clean it. My range sessions usually involve 100 rounds with the gun. I've owned it going on 10 years now and carry it in my pocket every day loaded with 11 rounds of +P 115 grain Hornady XTP JHP handloads. It has been reliable as any firearm I own, revolvers or automatics, and it'll still put 5 rounds into 3.5" at 25 yards.

 

[pocketgun]

OK, just got home from the gunstore...post the pic...IT DOESN'T FIT!

MCgunner, I will PM you with my name and address for the refund.

 

[brett30030]

Keltec has had their problems with reliability. I believe that those have been solved in all the current guns coming off the line. For the size and weight, nothing compares. There are definitely some better guns out there as far as multi-round reliability, but all that i know of weigh considerably more. I had my doubts when i bought my p3, but i now cannot understand why someone could carry something that may weigh 1.5-4 times as much and consider it comparable. I do not plan on using mine to fight an extended gun battle (i.e. 15+ rounds). I use mine to protect me as a last defense weapon (1-7 rounds). And i hope that i never have to use that.

 

[pocketgun]

OK, just got home from the gunstore...post the pic...IT DOESN'T FIT!

MCgunner, I will PM you with my name and address for the refund.

MCG, I hope you know I was only kidding you, right?

I have had my stainless steel P-11 (pictured above) for a while now, but carry my P-40 instead.

 

[GlockNation]

P3AT

A P3AT loaded with Corbon 380 DPX is deadly. The Barnes copper bullet gives consistent reliable expansion every time and penetrates 12-17 inches.

 

[ImprezaWRXSTi]

might wanna refinish the slide...the only bad thing with kel-tec is no stainless slides!! i waited like 2 months to get hard chrome!!

 

[kokapelli]

A P3AT loaded with Corbon 380 DPX is deadly. The Barnes copper bullet gives consistent reliable expansion every time and penetrates 12-17 inches.

GlockNation, where did you get those penetration figures?

When they gelatin tested the DPX 380 at "stoppingpower.net" from a P-3AT platform,, they got very good expansion, but they only achieved a little over 6 inches of penetration!

If a bullet expands, it's like a parachute and the 380 round just does not have enough power to push an expanded bullet through 12-17 inches of gelatin or meat.

 

[GlockNation]

GlockNation, where did you get those penetration figures?

From Corbon's website.

It must be true. Corporations never lie.

I probably should have been a little more suspicious before I made my last post. But I still believe any DPX bullet will kill you.

Here is the URL to the LE Catalogue: Click Customer Service, then LE Catalogue download. You can see their claim for yourself:
http://www.corbon.com/?uid=12665&page=1406