Kibler "Colonial" build thread

[troy fairweather]

You can't do anything here anymore with the city people that have moved up here, anything other then what was normal for them in the city they will call the cops or harass you and still call the cops.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've been hassled while hunting in Orange and Los Angeles counties - people taking pictures or video and making calls to the authorities to report a man with a gun (or even a bow, on one occasion). It's never amounted to much* but it certainly gets on my nerves. Recreational target shooting just about anywhere in L.A. these days - even when you do the research and find a legal spot - would likely get you some unwanted attention. I personally prefer somewhere legal and far away from people, so usually end up driving for a couple of hours.

*I was bowhunting a year or two back, carrying a Howard Hill longbow at the end of an unsuccessful day, and while walking back to the parking lot noticed a frantic couple pointing cell phones at me and making calls. When I got back to the lot, half an hour later, there was a deputy standing around and looking bored. As I walked by him he asked if I'd gotten anything, and we talked for a moment. Then he mentioned that they'd received a call about an "armed man" on the trail. Turns out the callers had made it down the trail ahead of me and had already been interviewed, with the cop telling them that this was a legal hunting area and that they can't go around calling the cops on hunters. It turned out that he himself was a bowhunter, but with the latest wheelie bow. His comment about my gear was a half-serious "I'm not completely convinced that you meet the definition of 'armed'".

Wow, yeah I see what you mean. I also like to get far into the wilderness where there are no people, although no one bats an eye at any kind of firearm, bow, or even my big old spear. Yes, back in the day we encountered the L.A. county Sheriff a few times, (not called on) and it was just "what are you boys doing?" and "Okay, have fun and be safe".

Hey I too am a traditional archer. !! Good for you. A Howard Hill! DANG!

 

[.38 Special]

Wow, yeah I see what you mean. I also like to get far into the wilderness where there are no people, although no one bats an eye at any kind of firearm, bow, or even my big old spear. Yes, back in the day we encountered the L.A. county Sheriff a few times, (not called on) and it was just "what are you boys doing?" and "Okay, have fun and be safe".

Hey I too am a traditional archer. !! Good for you. A Howard Hill! DANG!
View attachment 1163471

Very nice! I may have asked you this before, but is that laminated longbow/warbow in the middle from "Archeybowman"? I have several that are identical to yours and really like them.

 

[.38 Special]

This is the only picture of my collection that I have at the moment.




The two bows nearest the camera are laminated English warbows from Archeybowman, 95 and 115 pounds. The two in the middle are my Hills, both Wesley Specials. The lighter colored one is for big game, 75#@29", and the darker one is for small game and birds, 50#@28". The shiny one in the back is a yew warbow, 85#@31", and hiding behind it is my one recurve; my first trad bow - something like 35#.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

^^^
"I'm not convinced that you meet the definition of 'armed"
Now that's just funny.

 

[troy fairweather]

I used to have a original Fred bear stick bow made by him in the 50s or earlier, nice bow unfortunately it's one of the many things that was lost in the 2011 flooding. I've got a nice old Shakespeare recurve, it's a bit heavy even tho I'm pretty strong I'd rather it pull about 50#. Think it's 62# at 28" last I checked. Another thing I can't do in my yard is shoot my bows, not worth dealing with the cops when the Neighbors call.

 

[.38 Special]

I used to have a original Fred bear stick bow made by him in the 50s or earlier, nice bow unfortunately it's one of the many things that was lost in the 2011 flooding. I've got a nice old Shakespeare recurve, it's a bit heavy even tho I'm pretty strong I'd rather it pull about 50#. Think it's 62# at 28" last I checked. Another thing I can't do in my yard is shoot my bows, not worth dealing with the cops when the Neighbors call.

Legally, shooting a bow within our city limits is considered the same as discharging a firearm. I asked my neighbors if they'd mind, and then put up some ballistic netting and set up a 20 yard range in my backyard. Never had any troubles, but then I took a break from archery, all my neighbors moved away and were replaced with people who remain strangers, and that was that. Now when I want to shoot a bow I have to drive into town and pay for a lane at the range.

 

[.38 Special]

Slight update: the new can of Permalyn sealer arrived, and so I applied what I thought would have been the last coat. It's okay, but not exactly my wildest dream. I may leave it as-is, but am researching options. Still hope to have it done by the weekend...

 

[Ugly Sauce]

^^^
"I'm not convinced that you meet the definition of 'armed"
Now that's just funny.

Funny but ironic. A powerful bow is a very deadly weapon. In the movies, someone gets shot with a bow, the arrow is sticking out of them. A good bow will send that arrow all the way through. Zip! Leaving the "target" quite confused as to what just happened. !!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Slight update: the new can of Permalyn sealer arrived, and so I applied what I thought would have been the last coat. It's okay, but not exactly my wildest dream. I may leave it as-is, but am researching options. Still hope to have it done by the weekend...

What is Permalyn? natural? synthetic? Will it absorb an overcoat of oil like Tung oil? Is there a reason (of course there is) you didn't do a natural oil finish? (yeah, they can take years, just like getting a good gun metal grey finish on the barrel!)
This finish on my Jeager is oil. It took months, and I used a variety of oils, Tung, walnut oil, grapeseed, etc. That wood was actually that dark, or almost that dark before any oil. I still oil it down periodically with bear oil, coconut oil, mink or Hubbard's shoe grease. Oh yeah and Wonder Lube 1000. !!!! (which has lanolin in it) But it is quite sealed and water proof.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Very nice! I may have asked you this before, but is that laminated longbow/warbow in the middle from "Archeybowman"? I have several that are identical to yours and really like them.

No, that was from "RudderBows", bamboo, hickory and "EPE", which I think is some kind of alien rosewood or something. ? I tried to order a stave, and months and months went by, excuses excuses. So I finally sent them a nasty-gram. So one day they call, apologize and offer me a finished bow instead of the stave, for the same $$ I already had paid for the stave, which was not much. It arrived within days. It's a beauty, 65# @ 30", 72", horn tips and everything. I lucked out, as I've only ever heard bad things about Rudder Bows.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The two in the middle are my Hills,

TWO Howard Hills??? DOUBLE DANG!!!

 

[.38 Special]

What is Permalyn? natural? synthetic? Will it absorb an overcoat of oil like Tung oil? Is there a reason (of course there is) you didn't do a natural oil finish? (yeah, they can take years, just like getting a good gun metal grey finish on the barrel!)View attachment 1163513
This finish on my Jeager is oil. It took months, and I used a variety of oils, Tung, walnut oil, grapeseed, etc. That wood was actually that dark, or almost that dark before any oil. I still oil it down periodically with bear oil, coconut oil, mink or Hubbard's shoe grease. Oh yeah and Wonder Lube 1000. !!!! (which has lanolin in it) But it is quite sealed and water proof.

Part laziness, part "That's what Kibler recommends", and part desire for real weatherproofing - I use guns pretty hard, to the point of abuse. It's polymers, in a base which aggressively penetrates the wood. A few coats of it and supposedly the stock is perfectly waterproof. Some people - including some well-respected professional builders - use it as a finish, rubbed out with paraffin oil and rotten stone, which is probably what I will do. There is a Permalyn "finish", which I also have on order, and which apparently is the same stuff but with a different consistency and is meant to be rubbed in with bare fingers, like an oil finish. I will think on it some more and make up my mind.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I use guns pretty hard, to the point of abuse.

I'm not quite there, but the Jeager and Bess have both stayed out in the rain all day, and have hiked many a mile in rough country. Although I try hard to avoid them, dents and dings I do not worry about. If it's really a frog-strangler rain, yeah, I stay in camp and read a book, or set a tarp up by a game trail and...read a book.

I think that anything that is finger rubbed in would be best. Although the time and work of an oil finish is worth it to me, don't tell anyone but I have cheated a bit on other rifles by mixing in a small amount of "Tru-Oil" (which is not true at all, it's a poly product, has some small amount of oil in it) into my oil mix. That works well to save some time and work. I did my JM Marlin that way, and it is beautiful. If it's any more weather proof than rubbing real oil into the wood for months and years...can't say.

I don't think the route you are taking is lazy. The oil finish is probably more of a psychological "thing". Most guys won't do it, and that is probably why Kibler suggests the next "best" (?) thing. I enjoy working with the oils. OCD and attention to detail I guess. When done right, rubbed out, etc., the Permalyn finish is probably indistinguishable from a real oil finish. So...ROCK ON!

 

[.38 Special]

I'm not quite there, but the Jeager and Bess have both stayed out in the rain all day, and have hiked many a mile in rough country. Although I try hard to avoid them, dents and dings I do not worry about. If it's really a frog-strangler rain, yeah, I stay in camp and read a book, or set a tarp up by a game trail and...read a book.

I think that anything that is finger rubbed in would be best. Although the time and work of an oil finish is worth it to me, don't tell anyone but I have cheated a bit on other rifles by mixing in a small amount of "Tru-Oil" (which is not true at all, it's a poly product, has some small amount of oil in it) into my oil mix. That works well to save some time and work. I did my JM Marlin that way, and it is beautiful. If it's any more weather proof than rubbing real oil into the wood for months and years...can't say.

I don't think the route you are taking is lazy. The oil finish is probably more of a psychological "thing". Most guys won't do it, and that is probably why Kibler suggests the next "best" (?) thing. I enjoy working with the oils. OCD and attention to detail I guess. When done right, rubbed out, etc., the Permalyn finish is probably indistinguishable from a real oil finish. So...ROCK ON!

Well, it is part laziness, or at the very least impatience. If/when I do another Kibler kit I probably will do it the "right" way. Interestingly, I found an old post from Jim Kibler - before he had started the company, I believe - in which he wonders if it is possible to tell the synthetic finish from natural. He seemed to believe that it was, but that it was not obvious and would require a panel of experts and a double-blind study. He also noted that at one time he had used Permalyn regularly, but then had moved on to something else. (The finger-rubbed Tru-Oil, by the way, is often recommended as the top coat over the Permalyn, and is something I am considering.)

The main issue, for me, is simply that I very carefully sanded the stock, applied the aqua fortis, the stain, and a coat of sealant, and then decided I wasn't happy with the color. Sanding back the sealant and into the stain was a huge pita - I really hate undoing work I've already done - and I wasn't as careful as I should have been with the second round of sanding. So now I'm trying to hide scratches, and kicking myself for all my "first-timer" mistakes.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I really hate undoing work I've already done -

Ha ha, last two weeks I've been perfecting and fine-tuning the clutch on a 1937 Harley Davidson. (which started out as a 2-hour job to replace the transmission seal) Talk about doing, un-doing, and doing again!! But we don't hates it, just gotta do what ya gotta do.

Hey, you'll get it, and when she's done and you're outdoors sitting under a tree, (or bush, or rock?) and admiring it, it will all be worth it.

 

[.38 Special]

Still waiting on a few different "finish" coatings. Think I'll experiment a bit and see what looks/works best.

Got the replacement patchbox lid. Figured I'd "do it right", so sanded and whiskered it, went through the aqua fortis routine, stained it, and then sanded the stain back before sealing it, which is what I should have done with the rifle stock. After sealing, it turned out to be far too light to match the rifle, so I sanded off the sealant and reapplied the stain. That didn't darken it quite as much as I'd expected, but I figured resealing it would do the trick. It didn't. So after spending a while feeling sorry for myself, I got out the 100 grit and really sanded off the sealant, which was just shockingly annoying. The stuff gets deep into the wood. I finally got it all out, whiskered again, aqua fortised again, and then during the heating process discovered that there were still pockets of sealant which bubbled out of the wood! Thankfully, between the aqua fortis and a full coat of stain, the remaining sealant became invisible, so I'm now in the process of putting on fresh coats of sealant, and it looks as though the piece will finally match the rifle.

Short version: Be absolutely sure you have the color you want before using Permalyn. I am tired of learning new things!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The stuff gets deep into the wood. I finally got it all out, whiskered again, aqua fortised again, and then during the heating process discovered that there were still pockets of sealant which bubbled out of the wood!

Hmmmm....maybe a hand rubbed oil finish might have been easier?? Sorry, could not help myself. I'm a jokester...can't help myself. I make jokes at funerals...a perfect person I am not.

 

[hawg]

I've had my Tung oil finished Hawken out in some pretty bad weather and even soaked it with a water hose once to prove a point.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've had my Tung oil finished Hawken out in some pretty bad weather and even soaked it with a water hose once to prove a point.

Yes, real oil just takes multiple coats, lots of rubbing, and some time. One oil finish I would avoid is Linseed oil. I believe it is quite water-permeable. I think, not sure, could be wrong, but wasn't shelac (sp?) which is beetle shells, wasn't that a common finish in the black powder era?

Both my Jeager and Bess, both finished with a variety of oils have been in the rain all day with no signs of absorbing moisture. As mentioned, I periodically rub them down with oil once in a while, while watching a movie. Or YouTube. !!! Even so, I might skip the garden hose technique. Although, I'm sure it would pass the test, and if loaded would fire just fine. (well....might plug the touch hole first!)

 

[hawg]

I might skip the garden hose technique. Although, I'm sure it would pass the test, and if loaded would fire just fine. (well....might plug the touch hole first!)

That was the point I was making. My BIL lost a nice buck because his inline didn't fire in a drizzling rain. I told him my Hawken would fire in any kind of weather to which he said BS. So I set it up on the edge of a pallet and put the water to it for a few minutes and then fired it. He couldn't say anything.

 

[kje54]

Yes, real oil just takes multiple coats, lots of rubbing, and some time. One oil finish I would avoid is Linseed oil. I believe it is quite water-permeable. I think, not sure, could be wrong, but wasn't shelac (sp?) which is beetle shells, wasn't that a common finish in the black powder era?

Both my Jeager and Bess, both finished with a variety of oils have been in the rain all day with no signs of absorbing moisture. As mentioned, I periodically rub them down with oil once in a while, while watching a movie. Or YouTube. !!! Even so, I might skip the garden hose technique. Although, I'm sure it would pass the test, and if loaded would fire just fine. (well....might plug the touch hole first!)

Linseed oil is quite water repellent for relatively short exposures but like wooden furniture is susceptible to water damage. Similar concept of leaving a cold glass or bottle on the wood without a coaster. Also if memory serves (it's been a while) one common practice was to paint the stock, it was the norm to paint even high grade wooden furniture, etc. back in those days.

 

[.38 Special]

Brief update: applied a hand-rubbed coat of Permalyn, let it dry, and then buffed it with a paste of rottenstone and paraffin oil. This resulted in a pleasant "not quite satin, not quite gloss" finish that is about what I was looking for. When you really look there are still some scratches visible from my rushed "I already @#$*%^! did this!" sanding job, but they don't catch the eye. Then I went ahead and put everything back together, cut the pins to size, and cleaned up a few little details. So the rifle is done but for the ramrod and the sights, which should go on tonight. I'll try to put up some pictures either tonight or tomorrow, along with some "final thoughts".

 

[.38 Special]

Alrighty. Basically done now.









The ramrod is a work in progress. Among other things, I discovered it didn't actually fit! I think I must have got too much sealant down inside the hole. I tapered one end of the rod until it fit nicely, so of course it needs to be refinished. It wasn't nearly dark enough, anyway. There are a few other bits I still want to clean up a little, like the sides of the trigger guard, but it's 99% done at this point.

 

[.38 Special]

So, thoughts:

I still would argue that the kit is incredibly well done. I really did not know that technology had gotten us to the point where wood and metal parts could be fitted, by machine, to this degree of perfection. I truly could have slapped it together in a few hours and had a functional rifle. It almost is a blank slate, needing only a screwdriver and a chisel before the real task of making it pretty can begin.

I made a bunch of first-timer mistakes. The biggest one was the stock finish. I "knew" how to achieve the color I wanted, because the internet told me so. I should have experimented a bit, using the barrel channel, before diving right in. Then, when it turned out too dark, I should have just left it that way - it was still gorgeous. In sanding it back, I left scratches, changed flat surfaces and sharp edges into waves and rounded corners, and undid all of the perfect wood-to-metal fit I'd worked so hard for. It is no kind of disaster - is still better than just about every gun I own - but *I* will always know about it. Other stuff, like the patchbox lid, and the slip of a file into the finished stock, and... was all fixable, but it did all waste a bunch of time.

So... Would I do it again? Yes, absolutely, in a heartbeat. This is my all-time favorite rifle, the rifle I've been dreaming about since I was 17, and I expect it will be for quite some time - especially if I can actually hit anything with it!

If I had it to do over again, I'd:

Buy one really good 1/4" chisel, a stone to go with it, and keep it scalpel-sharp.

Buy a couple of new, best-quality files - a dovetailing file and a 10" or 12" single cut.

Buy finishing chemicals ahead of time, so I'm not constantly waiting around for them. Aqua fortis, Permalyn sealer, paraffin oil, rottenstone. I think I'd skip any other stains. In the end, I really like the Permalyn and would definitely use it again - knowing that the color is locked in the instant the first coat of sealant is applied.

Buy brown (not purple!) sandpaper in 120, 220, and 320 grit.

Buy a three-pack of maroon Scotchbrite pads.

Buy a pack of detail sanders.

Make sure to have or buy a couple of good screwdrivers which can be fitted to the gun screws.

Be sure to have or buy a good mainspring vise - the finish which comes on the hammer and side plate really doesn't belong on a rifle of this quality, and it can't be fixed without taking the lock apart.

Not bother bringing the brass to a polished finish. I absolutely hated it the instant I assembled the rifle. The fine matte finish produced with Scotchbrite looks far better, and it would have saved me hours of grunt work.

Make pins off the rifle. In a video, Jim drives the pins partly out of the gun, cuts them, rounds them, and taps them back in. He's better at it than I am, and fixing my mistakes is going to take longer than just measuring and making the pins in a vise would have.

And that's all I can think of for now.

I'm keeping all the supplies handy. I doubt I'll order another rifled flintlock kit from Kibler, but I may well get a fowler when they come out. And if they do end up producing a Hawken kit I will be first in line. The short version is that if you're on the fence about buying any of these things, and are capable of handling a file and chisel with any dexterity at all, you should absolutely do it.