!#$%#@ Kids!!

[Stickjockey]

Or, "Lasers in the Night."

So my Wife, three-year-old son, and I got home last night at about 8:30 p.m. from the In-Laws house where we had just had a pleasant, relaxing Christmas weekend. We go the car unpacked, the kiddo to bed, and were sitting in frontofa cheery fire watching The Return of the King. The wife was absently knitting something. She reached behind her to get something, then she said, "Dave, what's that?" I looked over my shoulder to see what she's talking about, and there, dancing on our living room window, is a bright red laser dot.

We both hit the floor, and I made my way over to the light switch and turned it off. She then went upstairs and got the kid while I went to the phone and dialed 911, giving the who-what-where and such. After the phone call, we met in the back bedroom, armed up, and waited for the "all clear." Presently, there was a knock at the door. Standing on the front porch was one of Portland's Finest, there to inform us that the young lad who lives across the street had gotten a laser pointer for Christmas and was just fiddling with it. Her partner was currently at the house, as she put it, "putting the fear of God into him." We thanked her and went back into normal mode, putting the boy back to bed and getting on with the evening. A bit later, we had another knock at the door. Upon answering, we found another officer, and a very nervous-looking young man, about twelve or thirteen. The officer introduced him and said that he'd like to apologize. There then followed what I took to be a very sincere and heartfelt apology and assurance that it wouldn't happen again.

Lessons:
In the words of Robert Heinlein, "Always keep your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark." This includes accessibility. My carry/HD piece was in a Lifejacket, where it resides when not on my person. It took several seconds for me to get it open in the dark, and those seconds can get really long.

Our commo situation needs some thought. We have one phone in our dining/computer room and one in the basement. We have two cellphones, and It didn't even occur to me to use one of them from the bedroom. Something to consider.

Questions:
Was this scenario overreaction on our part? Was there something else we could have done or something we could have done differently?

Was the 911 call too much? In retrospect, I feel kind of silly having called the cops on a kid with a laser pointer.

 

[pax]

It is only an over reaction in retrospect. There was no way you could have known that it was no threat at the time. So no need to feel silly or stupid about that.

That said, it may be a good idea to mend fences with the neighbors so no one has a chance to build up resentment against you. Not because you meant to do them any harm, and not because they meant to do you any harm, but think about it: in all innocence, the kid ruined your night -- and in your entirely reasonable but mistaken response, you ruined his and his parents' night.

Poor kid. No, really. Thirteen is a rough age.

Are you in generally good terms with the neighbors? I'm thinking, if it were me (being female and generally non-threatening), I'd call the kid's mom and offer to take him to the range for a safety lesson. Explain that you'd like him to understand why you reacted the way you did, something like that. Take along some good reactive targets and let him have a blast blowing holes in things. Bring the parents along, too, if you can.

If you've got a laser-equipped gun yourself, all the better.

At the end of the day, point out that as much fun as guns are on the range, you've seen how much damage they could do and you never want to envision that happening to anyone you care about. And that's why you called the cops over a stupid little laser pointer.

pax

 

[Valkman]

Yea, I don't think I would've gone through all that because of seeing a red dot. They're great cat toys and we have a pointer, so I probably would've found where it came from. Once I found it was coming from across the street I probably would have had a talk with them though!

Who did you think was attacking you to bring that reaction?

 

[yorec]

Er - wouldn't you have felt worse had gunfire followed your sighting of the red dot and broken windows and holes in your home been the result?

There was no way to tell the difference and I don't fancy investgating it myself - let someone who's paid to do it check it out...

 

[Stickjockey]

Valkman-

Honestly, I have no idea. I can tell you, though, that my Wife's ex-husband was a cop, and she's heard enough stories to make anyone a bit touchy. As for me, I've had friends assaulted for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Rodney King riots, anyone?), seen a taxi driver shot in the face for no apparent reason, and had a neighbor's garage shot up (lucky for them they were away on vacation. Their usual activities that night included having friends over and playing board games till the wee hours. If they had been home...)

 

[Valkman]

I got to thinking about my living room, and maybe I think it was an over-reaction because no one could shine a light in mine without being behind the house and getting on top of an 8' wall. It'd be kind of like calling 911 every time I hear a noise in the night - only to find it's my 2 cats playing.

I'm not saying what you did was wrong, but as I understand the situation I think I would've done differently.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Isn't assuming a laser beam is mounted to a gun the same as assuming a flashlight is mounted to a gun?

Criminy, people. These laser pointer things are all of $5 now in every office supply, drug, home improvement, convenience and discount store.

Doctors learn this expression: "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

Who did you think was after you? Russian spies?

The obvious, obvious tactical improvement? It's not relocating your guns, getting night vision goggles or bullteproof glass.

ahem....

close the !#$%#@ drapes at night!

Why let anyone -- friend, foe or foolish child -- see you when you can't see him?

 

[crashresidue]

Cheers Stickjocky,

No, you didn't over react. I was in a shopping mall one afternoon, after high school was out for the day. I was talking to a deputy/friend when I got "dotted" - my friend was standing behind a column so was invisible from the "dotting" site.

The deputy, in uniform noticed it first and after asking me to remain where I was, E&E'd away to find the person doing the "dotting". Turns out it was a 15 year old kid who'd "borrowed" his dad's pointer without telling anyone.

Between the armed cop, with weapon deployed and me with a conceled weapon on my person and hand on the butt - I believe we convinced him, and all his high school buddies that this wasn't just only a BAD idea, but one that could/will get him shot one day!

Now days, laser pointers are not made in red - it's got to be green light, in most of the states that I've traveled through. The old ones are still out there. So be careful and figilant.

"pax" and I are having a discussion about children and home defense weapons - how to concele them and still keep them available. Hers is the only way that I can see to do both. I'll let her give you her answer - it's not my place to do it.

Anyway - ya done good!

Gentle winds,
cr

 

[Battlespace]

Two or three years ago I was waiting at a school for a daughter and saw a young man lazing passing cars. I had a long talk with him and then another one with mom when she stopped to pick the little critter up. I explained the facts of life to them, that someone might shoot first and ask questions later.

A few months later my rear view mirror got lazed from a car behind me while at a stop light. I have a 4WD Suburban and simply shifted into reverse and started slowly backing into the little rice burner the laser was coming from. Horn started honking and lights started flashing. I then stopped, got out and told the pimple faced little jerk that shining a laser on someone could get him killed. I think he understood. I returned to my Suburban and received applause from surrounding motorists.

 

[2nd Amendment]

My question is, how far away is the neighbor's house? I've got a few laser pointers lying around and none of them would be noticeable from an across-the-street distance. Now the ones mounted on the AR's...maybe. But your lights were on? Kid had a devil of good pointer is all I can say.

 

[Kharn]

crashresidue:

Now days, laser pointers are not made in red - it's got to be green light, in most of the states that I've traveled through. The old ones are still out there. So be careful and figilant.

Green is the geek color of choice, because some of them show a visible beam, rather than just a dot. But they're quite pricey compared to the cheap red lasers that are available. One company I work with gives the red ones away, mounted on the top half of a pen; now those are very useful to have around.

Kharn

 

[P95Carry]

They're great cat toys

Indeed they are Don!! If cats needed walked like dogs then a few minutes chasin'a round after the lil' dot would do all that was needed.

As far as range goes .... my old pointer has about same range as my CT grips ... and in the dark they are good for ''across the street'' illumination .. even if dot has grown somewhat.

I think the reaction aspect to this scenario would depend greatly on where folks lived and what the lie of the land was. Overall - probably not something to get worked up about, but then past experience and circumstances can alter events.

 

[spacemanspiff]

dude! the laser pointer i had (have? cant find it anymore) was visible out to about 100 yards. lots of juvenile fun to be had with it. if i ever do find it again i'm gonna duct tape it to my fake ninja sword, you know, to increase its tacticalilty by like 3 points.

 

[shermacman]

I have got red laser pointers for group presentations in my company. None of them would show up on a wall in a house across the street. The only laser pointer that would show up that far is mounted to my Oly Arms AR-15. So I would have to say that you definately did not over react!

 

[g56]

His folks need to be educated that a laser pointer is not an appropriate child's toy, the problem wasn't just the child, it was with dumb parents as well.

 

[mack69]

Re:

In another life....when I was a youngster ....I was working for a company that did all their technical training in Boston.... A group of us from here in Chicago area had been sent out for training on new equipment. A group of us were sitting in a local sports bar with some local students and instructors. It was one of the locals who pointed out that he noted 2 suspicious groups also in the bar. As everyone is checking them out one of the guys realizes he recognizes one of the other guys. Says to us all...watch this....shoulda known no good was comin.....but...he proceeds to take out a small laser pointer from his pocket flicks it on and points it at the guy he recognized chest.
Next thing you know 5 guys drop to the floor pulling hardware and searching for targets. Once the hardware was showing the other suspicious group across from them also dropped and pulled hardware at the first group. Lots of yellin, some sreamin and chaos....Luckily....not a shot was fired...and no one got hurt.
Turns out the guy who got lasered was a dectective as were the other four guys. Turns out the second suspicious group was a local crime ring (drugs, prostitution, etc). The bad guys were rounded up and so was the idiot who lasered the cop. He got lucky and got kicked loose later that night....most likely only due to the fact they took down those bad guys...

 

[JamisJockey]

You all need to get off StickJockey's back. Those laser pointers are weapons. They can inflict serious eye injuries.

For cryin out loud the FAA issued an advisory to pilots on them not that long ago.

 

[Sindawe]

No overaction IMHO

I take being 'dotted' VERY seriously, not just for the possibility that the laser may be affixed to a firearm.

-----Begin Paste---

Intensity of a 1 mW Laser versus the Sun
Here is a comparison between the maximum intensity on the retina of the Sun and the beam from a 1 mW HeNe laser. (Adapted from one of Simon Waldman's optics lectures.)

Standard Sun:

Maximum intensity of sunlight at ground level (directly overhead, no smog, etc.) = 1 kW/m2 or 1 mW/mm2.

Assuming pupil diameter is 2 mm (i.e., radius of 1 mm), the area is approximately 3 mm2. So, the power of the sunlight through the pupil = 3 mW.

Focal length of eye's lens = approximately 22 mm. Angular size of Sun from Earth = 0.5 degree = 9 mR. Thus, diameter of image formed = 22 mm x 9 mR = 0.2 mm and the area of image = 0.03 mm2.

The intensity of the Sun on the retina (Power/Area) = 3 mW/0.03 mm2 = 100 mW/mm2.

Typical 1 mW HeNe laser (or laser pointer):

Power (P) = 1 mW, wavelength (l) = 633 nm, radius of beam (w) = 1 mm, focal length of eye (f) = 22 mm. So, the diameter of spot = (2 x f x l)/(w x pi) = 9 x 10-3 mm and the area of spot = 6 x 10-5 mm2.

The power density of the HeNe laser on the retina is 1 mW/(6 x 10-5 mm2) = 16,667 mW/mm2 = 16.667 watts/mm2.

So the 1 mW laser has the potential to produce an intensity on the retina 167 times that of direct sunlight! But there are many more factors to consider in determining the real risk of damage. In addition to those noted below, the actual focal point when looking at a laser at close range will not be at the retina so the spot size will most likely be much larger than the diffraction limit of the calculation. Even if the spot from the laser beam is smaller, natural eye movements or movement of the source (e.g., some moron waving a laser pointer) will result in it hitting any given point for a shorter time than the larger spot from the Sun (which usually doesn't move very quickly).

But, at least, perhaps you'll now have a bit more respect for that little HeNe laser or laser pointer!

(From: Jim Webb ([email protected]).)

The real problem behind this is that it is assumed that the power density is the significant factor in the thermal damage mechanism. The ability of the retina to dissipate heat is not dependent on the area covered, but the periphery (circumference) of the exposed area! The blood vessels are in the retina and not the sclera (the surface under the retina) - it is the blood flow that dissipates the heat and so can only act on the *edge* not the middle of the exposed area. In circumference terms, the ratio drops to 7 times. Furthermore because the larger spot is less efficient at dissipating heat, the effective power delivered by the laser beam is only about 2 times greater than that of the spot formed by the sun.

--------End paste--

Source: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersaf.htm

The eyes can not yet be replaced, and *I* take the preservation of my eyesight very seriously. I will not even undergo any corrective surgery on my eyes though I'm an excellent candidate. Glasses and contacts are less of a hassle then blindness. A quick exposure to a laser pointer probably will not cause damage, but I'm not gonna take that chance.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Atc1man, I call B.S.


The Mayo Clinic did a study: They had multiple patients who, for other medical reasons, had to have their eyes removed. These patients agreed to first be exposed to laser pointer emissions for 15 minutes nonstop. The Mayo Clinic then evaluated the damage, if any.

Their conclusion?

Other than transient afterimages that lasted only a few minutes, we were unable to document any functional, ophthalmoscopic, fluorescein angiographic, or histologic evidence of damage to any structures of the eyes.

...

The risk to the human eye from transient exposure to light from commercially available class 3A laser pointers having powers of 1, 2, and 5 mW seems negligible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11115266&dopt=Abstract

Here's the thing. When we see bright light, we blink.

If 15 minutes of point-blank exposure doesn't cause any damage, it seems improbably to the point of absurdity that a fraction-of-a-second exposure from across the street could even begin to pose the slightest possibility of even minimal risk of damage.

 

[JamisJockey]

I imagine there is more than one type of laser out there.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040928-111356-3924r.htm

http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/9_46/local_news/32135-1.html

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I imagine so. But I wouldn't stretch my imagination to the point that I believed that the 12-year-old across the street had a weapons-class laser -- or that anyone outside of stickjockey's house did, for that matter.

Again, unless Russian spies are out to eliminate him.

 

[Gewehr98]

Let's not forget...

That in several jurisdictions, law enforcement has permission to fire back at a source when illuminated by laser.

 

[Walt Rauch]

"what's that?" I looked over my shoulder to see what she's talking about, and there, dancing on our living room window, is a bright red laser dot.

We both hit the floor, and I made my way over to the light switch and turned it off. She then went upstairs and got the kid while I went to the phone and dialed 911, giving the who-what-where and such. After the phone call, we met in the back bedroom, armed up, and waited for the "all clear." "


Might I suggest, in similar circumstances, that taking a look and determining the source of the laser dot might be very beneficial while "gunning up" and building barricades.

 

[stevelyn]

........."gunning up".......

I like that phrase.

 

[txgho1911]

Lasers will burn you.

Communications grade lasers come in many different powers. The 2 most popular are refrenced as mm multimode 1300/1350 as in the type of fiber it is used in. Another called single mode 1500/1550 is pushing light signaling for 60-100 miles. The mm is used for building/campus sized backbone networks.
The sources used in mm are visible as red. Flash light or the overhead lights in a comm room is the only way i would ever consider a quick go/no go check.
I would not recomend looking at the bright end of your range finder.