Know Thy Opponents

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luzyfuerza

luzyfuerza

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I came across this story and thought that it had quite a few S&T lessons imbedded in it that might be worth discussion.



Lessons like:

1) Pocket carry might be easy, but is it practical?
2) Big gun or little gun...you choose.
3) Bad guys want to see your hands, too.
4) Crime is a team sport.
5) How to violate all the rules of stupid at the same time, and still survive.
6) Do drug dealers go on vacation when they don't have any drugs to sell?
7) Winning IS all that matters.

Enjoy!
 
Wow, pocket carry was the least of this guy's problems. A chick you only met briefly a month ago calls you at 11:00 PM to come to her apartment in a public housing project known for it's drug dealing, no problem here, no sir! I was young once and let my little head think for my big head sometimes but never to this level of stupidity. As he says when he encountered the two guys at his car he pushed back the sleeve of his jacket with his Glock because he already had it in his hand upon analyzing the situation.
I pocket carry when my attire requires it, a small 9mm in a DeSantis Nemesis holster and can pull it out of my pocket much faster than I can from my hip. You just have to practice. The choice of a revolver with a hammer spur for pocket carry is another stupid idea, that spur will snag on anything.
 
luzyfuerza said:
Quite different than drawing, say, from the pants pockets where many here say they carry their pocket pistols.
Click to expand...
If you say so.

My draw times from either generally aren't much different depending on which particular jacket or pants we're talking about. At least with my pants they're on me and as I draw the pistol there isn't much give where they start to go with the pistol as it exits the pocket. Can't say the same for the jacket. The butt of the pistol often gets hung up on certain jackets and you need to use your non-dominant hand to grab the garment in order to complete the draw because it often starts coming with the hand.

Might want to actually try some of this stuff on the clock.

What saved this guy was the realization that he was being set up (after putting himself in a stupid situation to begin with) and a small amount of situational awareness. Not holster type or placement on his body.

The title of the video is grossly misleading.
 
^
I said pants versus jacket pocket draws were different, you said they were different. Meh.

You added that times for jacket vs pants pocket were similar for you. Fair enough.

Both, it seems to me are simple dogma.

A much more interesting question is how the first two lessons I listed above seem to walk hand in hand, especially when considering the title of the thread.

The narrator was leaving with his .25, heard his spidey sense say that there might be trouble, and decided to take his G19. With a spare mag. Carried IWB.

Given his background, what did he know about his possible opponents that led him to take those steps?

The difference for me is the "noisy cricket" (from Men in Black, of course) effect. For an opponent steeped in the criminal side of gun culture, does anyone here think that an lcp would be as effective an intimidation tool as, say, a chrome Desert Eagle?
 
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It more depends. Mostly it's the same (I generally wear outdoors jackets and cargo pants, carharts or jeans with large pockets though), but sometimes a particular jacket moves around so much or the jacket pocket is so small that drawing is a pain. It more greatly depends on the individual jacket or pants pocket than having blanket statements about either be accurate.

Depends. :Shrug

You have to try this stuff out with the guns and holsters you're using with the clothes that you're actually wearing. I know that makes for a boring video (unlike talking about Hallie Berry's younger prettier sister trying to set someone up to be jacked), but that's the stuff that will cut down on fumbles.

One way or the other at least with pocket carry the pistol is on you,

Also just saying that the title is misleading.
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As for living in the hood somehow giving someone some special insight into how guns are used I'm going to say both yes and no. I grew up in the hood, big deal. Guns got flashed a lot and there was a lot of braggin and saggin, but there was poor weapons maintenance, ammo of the same type was a rarity and the shootings I saw were 'point in general direction and blaze away'.

Running into people willing to use guns to settle matters that a simple discussion would solve anywhere else doesn't necessarily mean that they're any good with them.
 
Well, the gun is in my pocket or I’m not carrying one. That’s just me and the climate I live in.

Up north I could conceal a BHP pretty easily year round. Now I choose not to.

Let me guess, a five shot revolver is also not good enough. Well, I don’t have any pocket autos so guess what?

If my ticket gets punched then so it goes. I’ll try to keep myself alive the best I can within REASON. Gotta live your life too.

Risk management is a balancing act that works different for everyone.
 
In colder climates it is IMPOSSIBLE to draw from a closed coat.

So a BUG in the pocket with LOTS of practice is a great idea.

You will also figure out really fast what guns can [ and cannot ] be drawn from a pocket FAST !.

S&W 340PD is one,another is a High Standard o/u derringer,I could go on but hope you get the idea.
 
Browning said:
Pocket carry is a bad idea, proceeds to tell story about how he pulled a gun on robbers from jacket pocket.
Click to expand...

If it is in your jacket pocket, don't pull it out, just shoot through the cloth! At the first shot, the perp will duck instinctively, giving you time to draw and get a better bead on them.
 
JTHunter said:
If it is in your jacket pocket, don't pull it out, just shoot through the cloth! At the first shot, the perp will duck instinctively, giving you time to draw and get a better bead on them.
Click to expand...
Depends on if it's a semi or revolver. That would likely work fine with a revolver.

With a semi if a slide gets caught on the cloth or the expended casing can't eject properly and causes a malfunction that's going to be a problem. You'll get one shot.
 
Pocket carry everywhere all the time.

I don't look to get into trouble and the off-chance that I'll need it now is slim.
I can hold my gun in my pocket at the ready and no one is the wiser.
It can't bang into stuff or unintentionally unconceal itself.
I don't need to wear more clothes to cover it but I do sometimes stuff my android in the same pocket thereby making certain it never prints (good for places that frown upon weapons).
I no longer wear Jean's but when I did they were loose enough to be comfortable with a gun.
I can run, fall, bend, stretch, sit stand, and my gun is always there, concealed and secure.
I'm old, don't have hips or a butt, belts don't work for me.
I'm big enough to pocket carry a 4 5/8" Vaquero but what fills my pockets are Centennial style J frames.
I sometimes carry 2 J frames because one could malfunction or I could possibly need more than 5 right now.
Miscellaneous errands my 340 & NAA goes along, the 640 stays in the truck.
Been pocket carrying for over 30 years, I just don't wear loose baggy pants over my @ss crack when I do.
 
My primary carry is a compact XD45 (10+1 capacity with 4" barrel) strong side IWB. When I carry a BUG, it is a S&W 442 that goes in a pocket holster in my weak side front pants pocket.

I don't have to worry about any legal repercussions for being made or printing, and I've been at it long enough that my wardrobe has adapted to the gun, so I seldom cannot carry my primary. Only rarely do I venture out with only the BUG.

I experimented with various pocket carry locations and BUGs, using targets at various ranges and on the timer, before settling on these methods as being best for me.

My testing of my abilities demonstrated clearly to me that bigger guns carried on the waist 1) are easier to draw quickly, 2) are easier to shoot in "duty" calibers, 3) allow for better recoil control, 4) allow me to engage targets at greater distances, and 5) hold more rounds

than

any semi-auto "mouse guns" in .380 acp (or other less potent calibers) that are small enough for pocket carry, or any j-frame sized revolver in .38 special.

That being said, pocket carry does work for me on those unusual occasions when deep concealment is needed.

Pocket carry is also useful if you carry an internal hammer revolver and you think you might want to shoot through the pocket.

Reflecting on it, pocket carry might also have advantages with regard to weapon retention, too.

But in general, for me, a bigger gun carried on the waist is the better approach.
 
I had also never considered that criminals would think about seeing their opponents' hands when making a victim selection decision.

I knew that having a hand on the butt of a gun in the waistband would be a clear signal (no duh, right?) but I never thought that having a hand in a pocket, being such a natural, common position, would be something they might consider.
 
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View media item 2359Ran to get coffee and cigarettes. For some reason i shoved my M9A3 in my front pocket, no holster. Not my usual carry but I just felt like having it. Concealed very well but not something I want to haul around all day.
When I worked security I had the Batman belt with Safariland level II holster, two spare mags, friction baton and carrier, mace and carrier, two handcuffs and carriers, flashlight with carrier. Just a nightmare to wear so I usually stuffed mace, flashlight and baton in one pocket and the M9A3 in another. As usual my 340 was also on me.
Pocket carry just works for me better.
 
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View attachment 835608

Just for the fun of it. No thought put into it. Concealing 6 handguns in old cotton slacks and raggedy T-shirt.
M9A3 Vaquero 640 340 NAA M&P.
Galco Glove Ankle holster, NAA Ankle Holster, Simulated shoulder holsters and pockets.
 
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George29 - you remind me of the old joke about an elderly woman pulled over for speeding. When the officer asked her if she had any weapons with her, she said yes, then listed the 5 handguns she had in the car with her. The officer was dumbfounded with her list in the car and asked if there were any more. So she told him about the rifle and shotgun in the trunk. Astonished, the officer asked the elderly woman if she was afraid of something or someone. She replied:

"Nope, not a damned thing!" :evil: :rofl:
 
View attachment 836045 The trick is looser clothing and deep pockets coupled with a powerful caliber.
My favorite guns are in .380 but I no longer own any, they are just way too underpowered for me, but as I age I may change my mind, my joints are deteriorating and if I live long enough may have to think about tricking out a wheelchair. Maybe mount a SBR on it:)
Maybe a cane gun of some type.
 
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Pocket carry in a jacket pocket is one thing and pocket carry in your pants pocket is another thing.

I always carry OWB and dress around the gun, which can be a challenge in warm weather. I used to frequently carry a small revolver or auto pistol in an ankle rig, but not so much any more.

Depending upon your attire and your build, drawing from a pants pocket can be very difficult when seated or when moving,

Experimentation should help you determine what will work your you in your situation,
 
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