denfoote
Member
Drivel and all, this article can be summed up in the phrase:
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!!!"
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!!!"
LAPD switches to glock and defies physics!!!
- Thread starter raz-0
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Flashpoint
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As far as the felt recoil thing I was suprised at how the G17 felt when I shot it next to my Sig p239. I felt no dissernable difference between the Glock and the Sig, I just wish I still had my Ruger P89 to compair with it. One the other hand, on the same day another friend had brought a S&W 6906 (9mm) and the recoil on that thing felt like or worse than that of my Steyr M40. I really don't understand how the same round can be THAT different in different guns.
George Hill
Member
"PERCEPTION of recoil"
That's also called "Felt Recoil" and is different from person to person.
That's also called "Felt Recoil" and is different from person to person.
SelfProclaimedExpert
member
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1911tuner,
Not sure where you're coming from. G3s have the same standard rifling that most 91s have. A few HK rifles, like sniper varients and the SR9 series have polygonal bores, but not the standard G3. Ask around.
Anyway, as a theory your polygonal bore idea is also flawed. A 1 in 12 land and groove bore does the exact same thing to the bullet as a 1 in 12 polygonal bore. The muzzle velocities will be about the same and the bullets will be spinning just as fast. Therefore the bullet and gun interacted in virtually the same way in both cases.
There is just no way that two bores with the same load, producing the same results are going to have completely different recoil signatures.
Not sure where you're coming from. G3s have the same standard rifling that most 91s have. A few HK rifles, like sniper varients and the SR9 series have polygonal bores, but not the standard G3. Ask around.
Anyway, as a theory your polygonal bore idea is also flawed. A 1 in 12 land and groove bore does the exact same thing to the bullet as a 1 in 12 polygonal bore. The muzzle velocities will be about the same and the bullets will be spinning just as fast. Therefore the bullet and gun interacted in virtually the same way in both cases.
There is just no way that two bores with the same load, producing the same results are going to have completely different recoil signatures.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re: Felt Recoil
I understand felt recoil...or percieved recoil. Mostly a matter of
difference in grip angle or stock design. i.e. length of pull, drop at the
comb, etc. The weight of the gun, and even barrel length can make a difference, especially when handguns are compared....but those two
rifles were identical, save for the method of inducing bullet spin and
the rock and roll option on the G-3.
We all noticed the difference, and we played with it to see if we
could determine why there was a difference. Cradling the rifles
loosely off shoulder with several observers watching the same shooter
fire both back to back caused us all to agree that the rifle was not
only moving a shorter distance, but the muzzle was rising far less
on the rifle with the pologonal bore. The only thing that we couldn't
do was to find a way to measure the recoil in foot pounds between
the two rifles, and the buyer was due to take transfer on the rifle
the next day, so we never got to take the experiment further.
Whether this was a direct function of less resistance to the bullet passing, or because of the higher velocities/shorter bullet dwell time, I haven't
a clue. Maybe a ballistician can explain it better.
Edited: SPE...This G-3 had a polygonal bore. Don't know where the
Class 3 dealer got it.
Anybody?
Tuner
I understand felt recoil...or percieved recoil. Mostly a matter of
difference in grip angle or stock design. i.e. length of pull, drop at the
comb, etc. The weight of the gun, and even barrel length can make a difference, especially when handguns are compared....but those two
rifles were identical, save for the method of inducing bullet spin and
the rock and roll option on the G-3.
We all noticed the difference, and we played with it to see if we
could determine why there was a difference. Cradling the rifles
loosely off shoulder with several observers watching the same shooter
fire both back to back caused us all to agree that the rifle was not
only moving a shorter distance, but the muzzle was rising far less
on the rifle with the pologonal bore. The only thing that we couldn't
do was to find a way to measure the recoil in foot pounds between
the two rifles, and the buyer was due to take transfer on the rifle
the next day, so we never got to take the experiment further.
Whether this was a direct function of less resistance to the bullet passing, or because of the higher velocities/shorter bullet dwell time, I haven't
a clue. Maybe a ballistician can explain it better.
Edited: SPE...This G-3 had a polygonal bore. Don't know where the
Class 3 dealer got it.
Anybody?
Tuner
HankB
Member
Uh oh . . . from what I've seen, unless instructed otherwise, some officers may actually try this. (Some LEO firearms instructors I've spoken to have stories about new recruits that make me shudder.)
If you plot the recoil on a graph, you'll see that there's a sharp spike, then it tapers off. If you take the same amount of energy and distribute it over a longer period of time, the spike will be shorter and fatter. That SHORTER part translates into less "snap" in the recoil, which certainly affects the shooter differently.
For example, shoot a .45 Colt with a black powder load, and shoot the same gun with the same bullet using a modern, quick burning powder. It's a different animal. But even if you carefully work up the loads to get them pushing the same bullet weight at the same speed, the recoil will feel very different.
I don't know if a polygonal bore changes the recoil curve, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
For example, shoot a .45 Colt with a black powder load, and shoot the same gun with the same bullet using a modern, quick burning powder. It's a different animal. But even if you carefully work up the loads to get them pushing the same bullet weight at the same speed, the recoil will feel very different.
I don't know if a polygonal bore changes the recoil curve, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
Island Beretta
Member
I hope that during its tenure with the LAPD, the Berettas did not in any way contribute to the loss of life or injury to an officer given the POS that they are..
Thanks Glock for saving the day. I don't know how we survived without you all these years..you are indeed Perfection. 
Thanks Glock for saving the day. I don't know how we survived without you all these years..you are indeed Perfection.
SelfProclaimedExpert
member
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1911Tuner,
There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.
Bores do not. Ask any of the thousands of people who have substituted aftermarket barrels for their Glocks or HKs.
Everybody, this is a really sorry occasion for Glock bashing. We all know that Glocks have smaller grips than the 92, we all know that the same basic Glock is offered in many calibers, and we all have heard that polymer frame flex eats a little recoil. That's all the guy in the article was trying to get across. Alot of people don't care for the big Beretta, quality gun or not. This is really not a big deal.
There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.
Bores do not. Ask any of the thousands of people who have substituted aftermarket barrels for their Glocks or HKs.
Everybody, this is a really sorry occasion for Glock bashing. We all know that Glocks have smaller grips than the 92, we all know that the same basic Glock is offered in many calibers, and we all have heard that polymer frame flex eats a little recoil. That's all the guy in the article was trying to get across. Alot of people don't care for the big Beretta, quality gun or not. This is really not a big deal.
BerettaNut92
Member
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So does Ice Cube, Tupac and 50 Cent! Yeah!
Great. So LA is being cleaned up by a guy whose duty gun gave him blisters? Ok, my hands are so girly, that I get splinters from hair fibers that get stuck in my hand. Seriously. But my Beretta does NOT give me splinters. And my hands are probably the girliest out of everyone here outside of Runt.
rock jock
Member
They forget to mention .357sig and the daddy of them all - the 10 mm.
Really, that was such a stupid statement to make. He should have said that most officers prefer the Glock and that is why it is better for them.
Really, that was such a stupid statement to make. He should have said that most officers prefer the Glock and that is why it is better for them.
Nightcrawler
Member
If that big, soft-shooting 9mm gave him blisters, 'wait until he fires off a typical defensive .40 load in an autoloader that's lighter and has "corners" on the grip.
[WUSS]But I don't WANT to carry a Beretta! It gives me BLISTERS![/WUSS]
Mastrogiacomo
Member
I've handled both the Glock 19 and Beretta 92FS -- as a female shooter, I can't figure why it'd be too big for man, but to each his own. I don't notice the recoil with the Beretta which is why I bought three -- and this from a lady that sold her S&W 442 because of the bite. I don't have to conceal my duty gun so it's not an issue. If I were carrying concealed -- I'd switch to a Beretta type M, a 686 snubbie or a Glock 26....all are good guns, it's just a matter of preference in my book.
I don't have to conceal my duty gun so it's not an issue. If I were carrying concealed -- I'd switch to a Beretta type M, a 686 snubbie or a Glock 26....all are good guns, it's just a matter of preference in my book.WonderNine
member
Thank god for Browning Hi-Powers!!!
Sorry, just had to throw that in there.
And REAL Italian Beretta 92's are outstanding pistols in their own right.
Life is too short to shoot plastic guns.
Sorry, just had to throw that in there.
And REAL Italian Beretta 92's are outstanding pistols in their own right.
Life is too short to shoot plastic guns.
"Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon," than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, said Chief William Bratton during a hearing before the five-member civilian panel that oversees department policy.
Bratton, who headed the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s, said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles.
The $500 Glock has less recoil than guns currently used by officers. It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun, according to the Los Angeles Police Department.
The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."
Damn, I bet the Pentagon would like to hear the Chief's findings on why a Glock is a much beter weapon than the M9. Blisters from a beretta? What was he doing trying to clean the barrel with his fingers? A lighter weight gun will not have less recoil than a heavier gun firing the same round. Polymer frames flexes a tiny amount but so do steel and aluminum alloy. I guess this new chief never heard about the Beretta 96. Smells like the has been bought out by Gaston Glock. Either that or he really is that stupid.
What this article fails to mention is that the Glock 22 has been approved for officers to buy on their own. The Beretta 92 will still be the standard issue. The Chief is just making excuses to allow officers to carry the .40 round instead of the 9mm. Hate the caliber, not the gun Chief.
Bratton, who headed the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s, said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles.
The $500 Glock has less recoil than guns currently used by officers. It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun, according to the Los Angeles Police Department.
The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."
Damn, I bet the Pentagon would like to hear the Chief's findings on why a Glock is a much beter weapon than the M9. Blisters from a beretta? What was he doing trying to clean the barrel with his fingers? A lighter weight gun will not have less recoil than a heavier gun firing the same round. Polymer frames flexes a tiny amount but so do steel and aluminum alloy. I guess this new chief never heard about the Beretta 96. Smells like the has been bought out by Gaston Glock. Either that or he really is that stupid.
What this article fails to mention is that the Glock 22 has been approved for officers to buy on their own. The Beretta 92 will still be the standard issue. The Chief is just making excuses to allow officers to carry the .40 round instead of the 9mm. Hate the caliber, not the gun Chief.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Buffers
SP Expert reports:
There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.
Now, there's a plausible explanation...and one that I didn't realize,
not being much up on the 91/G-3 weapon systems. Never really
cared for'em. Good, reliable rifles, no doubt...but they just don't
feel right to me. Kinda like shoulderin' an axle with a brake drum
on the end. Plus, that hump busts me in the cheek. I guess
I'm just bolt-rifle spoiled...*sigh*
Thanks for the info Expert. Now all I gotta do is look up the
guys who were scratchin' their heads that day and let'em know.
Gonna be tough, seein' as how it all happened in 1983...
Cheers!
Tuner
SP Expert reports:
There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.
Now, there's a plausible explanation...and one that I didn't realize,
not being much up on the 91/G-3 weapon systems. Never really
cared for'em. Good, reliable rifles, no doubt...but they just don't
feel right to me. Kinda like shoulderin' an axle with a brake drum
on the end. Plus, that hump busts me in the cheek. I guess
I'm just bolt-rifle spoiled...*sigh*
Thanks for the info Expert. Now all I gotta do is look up the
guys who were scratchin' their heads that day and let'em know.
Gonna be tough, seein' as how it all happened in 1983...
Cheers!
Tuner
jacketch
Member
It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun.
Wondernine is right, they needed BHP's
p.s. he didn't where on his anatomy or how he got the blisters
Wondernine is right, they needed BHP's
p.s. he didn't where on his anatomy or how he got the blisters
As for the blisters...he probably grabbed the barrel after shooting the qual course.
The comment on the poly rifling has some truth to it. If LAPD buys a bulk lot of Glocks, there is very little difference in the bores, since they are machined one right after the other. This maks it difficult to determine which gun fired the projectile. This really becomes an issue when multiple officers fire their weapons in the same incident, and you need to find out who hit the BG (or innocent bystander). In fact, on one Department I am aware of, it was the street officers policy (not the Department's) that "...if one shoots everyone shoots". Making it harder to determine who did hit the BG...which is good (if you have a SAO/DA that hates cops) or bad, if you an an innocent bystander (or the surviving spouse of one).
Oh, and by the by, I have fired both, and like 'em both OK, but don't own either. I like Colt semi-autos (and Hi-powers) and S&W revolvers.
The comment on the poly rifling has some truth to it. If LAPD buys a bulk lot of Glocks, there is very little difference in the bores, since they are machined one right after the other. This maks it difficult to determine which gun fired the projectile. This really becomes an issue when multiple officers fire their weapons in the same incident, and you need to find out who hit the BG (or innocent bystander). In fact, on one Department I am aware of, it was the street officers policy (not the Department's) that "...if one shoots everyone shoots". Making it harder to determine who did hit the BG...which is good (if you have a SAO/DA that hates cops) or bad, if you an an innocent bystander (or the surviving spouse of one).
Oh, and by the by, I have fired both, and like 'em both OK, but don't own either. I like Colt semi-autos (and Hi-powers) and S&W revolvers.
Maybe the blisters occured from pulling that loooong Beretta DA trigger one too many times, as I don't suppose the LAPD can afford to send off all of their pistols to LTT for his superb trigger job.
As far as the caliber, the LAPD already authorizes the .45acp. However, they have had very good success with the 9mm as they issue effective ammunition for it, the 147gr Ranger RA9T loading.
As has already been mentioned, the Beretta is supposed to remain standard issue, with Glock's being approved in 9mm, .40, .45acp......
Like percieved recoil, how an individual shoots a particular weapon is also subjective and personal, what one likes, another won't. I for one, shoot Glocks better than Beretta's do to the Glocks lower bore axis, consistent trigger pull, shorter trigger reach, shorter trigger reset ect.......
Recoil with the larger caliber will be more. However, in my experience it will also depend on the load used, not just the platform. It's been said they will issue the 180gr Ranger loading, which to me, is quite manageable in a Glock 23 for instance, as it has less snap and blast than the hotter 155gr and 165gr full power .40SW loads. IMO, the 180gr loads are the "easiest" shooting loads in the caliber, with the exception of ammunition that has been downloaded.
Best, jnb01
As far as the caliber, the LAPD already authorizes the .45acp. However, they have had very good success with the 9mm as they issue effective ammunition for it, the 147gr Ranger RA9T loading.
As has already been mentioned, the Beretta is supposed to remain standard issue, with Glock's being approved in 9mm, .40, .45acp......
Like percieved recoil, how an individual shoots a particular weapon is also subjective and personal, what one likes, another won't. I for one, shoot Glocks better than Beretta's do to the Glocks lower bore axis, consistent trigger pull, shorter trigger reach, shorter trigger reset ect.......
Recoil with the larger caliber will be more. However, in my experience it will also depend on the load used, not just the platform. It's been said they will issue the 180gr Ranger loading, which to me, is quite manageable in a Glock 23 for instance, as it has less snap and blast than the hotter 155gr and 165gr full power .40SW loads. IMO, the 180gr loads are the "easiest" shooting loads in the caliber, with the exception of ammunition that has been downloaded.
Best, jnb01
SelfProclaimedExpert
member
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I wonder if this thread would be equally inane if some department made a statement as to why they were switching from Glock to Beretta?
Almost definitely.
Almost definitely.
Nightcrawler
Member
Oh, SPE, I can just see that. The Glock Perfection crowd would have kittens.
It'd be fun to watch, it really would...
It'd be fun to watch, it really would...
This is exactly why I don't participate much in this forum lately as well as GlockTalk and 1911Forum. The same rehashing of negativity and overstatements that instigate these kinds of arguments.
I'm a Glock fan as well as a SIG fan, 1911 fan, S&W revolver fan, and pretty much all decent quality guns out there. Arguments like these are par for the course I understand that; and sometimes there's good information. And I'll admit I've been pulled into these "constest of wills" in the past.
I guess its always been like this but there are other forums that aren't as bad. I've realized everyone's been basically talking to themselves (me included) in order to convince themselves or build up arguments for their own brand loyalties.
I'm sure there are lurkers out there who see threads like this, shake their heads, and don't see the point in sharing opinions/information with people who have such entrenched opinions
I have my favorites but there's always some joker that tells me I should switch to whatever they're shooting. Do they think I'm gonna say "Yeah, you're right my gun does suck. *** was I thinking?"
I'm a Glock fan as well as a SIG fan, 1911 fan, S&W revolver fan, and pretty much all decent quality guns out there. Arguments like these are par for the course I understand that; and sometimes there's good information. And I'll admit I've been pulled into these "constest of wills" in the past.
I guess its always been like this but there are other forums that aren't as bad. I've realized everyone's been basically talking to themselves (me included) in order to convince themselves or build up arguments for their own brand loyalties.
I'm sure there are lurkers out there who see threads like this, shake their heads, and don't see the point in sharing opinions/information with people who have such entrenched opinions
I have my favorites but there's always some joker that tells me I should switch to whatever they're shooting. Do they think I'm gonna say "Yeah, you're right my gun does suck. *** was I thinking?"
Last edited:
Considering the individual (Bratton) who pushed the Glock for optional carry (at the officer's expense), it will probably have a twenty pound trigger pull and be unreliable (remember NYPD's Phase 3 malfunctions) by the time he gets finished with it.
Tecolote
Member
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- Feb 8, 2003
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- 904
Is the Glock option or the new standard issue? I keep reading conflicting reports.
Not to mix up apples and oranges I'll lmite my 2 cents to the 92FS and Glock 17. I think that both the 92FS and Glock 17 are excellent defense tools.
The Glock 17 is a lot lighter. This could be a big deal after you've been hauling a San Brown full of gear for more than 10 hours.
The Glock 17 has a much lower bore axis and a polymer frame that help reduce perceived recoil.
The Glock 17 requires a lot less care. Anyone remember the show on the Discovery Channel about the LAPD? Remember the episode where one officer's 92FS jams because it was never cleaned? I've seen two 92FS that jammed because they weren't probably cleaned and lubed. The 92FS is a fantastic defense tool but compared to a Glock it needs to be cleaned and lubed more often. This is important for people that are too lazy or don't care about keeping their sidearm clean.
The Glock 17 will be cheaper than the 92FS. The article quotes the price of $500 but that's way off base. Even for individual officer purchases the price is lower because no excise tax is based. I wouldn't be surprised if Glock offered to buy back the current Berettas and cut LAPD a huge deal.
The Glock 17 has a much shorter trigger reach. It accomodates a greater variety of hand sizes.
The Glock 17 Safe-Action means a consistent pull unlike the 92FS DA/SA. Again, not a big deal for those willing to learn the transition but that takes more time.
NYPD went with the "New York" heavier trigger after NYSP did. The powers that be in NYC insisted on it. It wasn't Bratton's choice to make. Everyone has their own explanation for the NYPD Phase 3 Malfunctions. Glock blames the ammo, NYPD blames Glock, Glock fans blame NYPD, but no one has an explanation yet.
I don't know about blisters, but try firing 100 rounds DA only from a bone stock 92FS. It made my index finger sore!
Not to mix up apples and oranges I'll lmite my 2 cents to the 92FS and Glock 17.
I think that both the 92FS and Glock 17 are excellent defense tools.The Glock 17 is a lot lighter. This could be a big deal after you've been hauling a San Brown full of gear for more than 10 hours.
The Glock 17 has a much lower bore axis and a polymer frame that help reduce perceived recoil.
The Glock 17 requires a lot less care. Anyone remember the show on the Discovery Channel about the LAPD? Remember the episode where one officer's 92FS jams because it was never cleaned? I've seen two 92FS that jammed because they weren't probably cleaned and lubed. The 92FS is a fantastic defense tool but compared to a Glock it needs to be cleaned and lubed more often. This is important for people that are too lazy or don't care about keeping their sidearm clean.
The Glock 17 will be cheaper than the 92FS. The article quotes the price of $500 but that's way off base. Even for individual officer purchases the price is lower because no excise tax is based. I wouldn't be surprised if Glock offered to buy back the current Berettas and cut LAPD a huge deal.
The Glock 17 has a much shorter trigger reach. It accomodates a greater variety of hand sizes.
The Glock 17 Safe-Action means a consistent pull unlike the 92FS DA/SA. Again, not a big deal for those willing to learn the transition but that takes more time.
NYPD went with the "New York" heavier trigger after NYSP did. The powers that be in NYC insisted on it. It wasn't Bratton's choice to make. Everyone has their own explanation for the NYPD Phase 3 Malfunctions. Glock blames the ammo, NYPD blames Glock, Glock fans blame NYPD, but no one has an explanation yet.
I don't know about blisters, but try firing 100 rounds DA only from a bone stock 92FS. It made my index finger sore!
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