LE Restricted HP Ammo

[Monty]

Received the following in an e-mail from Bone Frog Gun Club this week.

50 round boxes of LE marketed ammunition has always been intended for Law Enforcement; 20 round boxes are available for standard retail purchasers. The manufacturers are getting stricter on these guidelines as it pertains to online sales, thus we have been asked to abide by indicating this on these product pages and asking customers to register with us in order to purchase these products. Currently we are required to restrict the purchase of 124 grain products, but eventually we anticipate all 50 round LE boxes will be restricted.

I've noticed on TargetSportsUSA, all their 50 round boxes of HST 9mm are now at least $30, not that long ago it was $20. Are we starting to see a trend toward the end of reasonably priced quality HP ammo?

 

[JR24]

Might just be. Good thing Paul Harrell has almost convinced me UMC and WWB are just as effective...

Or I'll just have to roll my own (and the dice, should I actually have to use it).

 

[TTv2]

Might just be. Good thing Paul Harrell has almost convinced me UMC and WWB are just as effective...

Or I'll just have to roll my own (and the dice, should I actually have to use it).

Gotta include the fist pump when you say "just as..." like P. Harrell does.

Winchester WWB 9mm I knew long before he did videos on it was effective thanks to ShootingTheBull. Does the bullet look symmetrical and pretty when it's dug out of the gel? No, but a pretty bullet isn't the point of a JHP.

The only thing you lose with that low priced ammo is the nickel plated case and the fast burning powders. It's when you get into .380 and snub barrel .38 Special where you have to pay more to get a load you like (I prefer Inceptor as it's not a hollow point) as expansion either doesn't happen or when it does the penetration is not deep enough.

 

[paulsj]

If I was in charge of operations at ammo making facility only government agencies or agents representing them could get 50 pack of something for which 20 or 25 pack costs more retail. I always assumed that LE stuff sold cheaply is old stock law enforcement surplus.

 

[drband]

hmmm lots of LE ammo on sgammo @ $29.99 per 50. Federal 20 packs of HST are actually cheaper per round than the 50 packs, but some other manufacturers still have good prices on 50 rd. packs (Speer, Fiocchi, Remington). Not sure why HST's are more in the 50 pack now...

 

[Monty]

Think I got spoiled on the $.40 a round HST. I quite freely reliably tested it in everything, shot some every range trip and I've got everything loaded up with it. At $.60 a round or possibly more, I'm going to have to change my way of living, lol.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Not sure why HST's are more in the 50 pack now...

HSTs are getting a lot of buzz on the internet due to the very positive results in testing. I'm guessing they realized they were undercharging for them. The higher cost for 50 vs 20 round boxes is likely a glitch that will disappear in the future. I've seen that before and within a few months pricing is adjusted.

 

[JR24]

Think I got spoiled on the $.40 a round HST. I quite freely reliably tested it in everything, shot some every range trip and I've got everything loaded up with it. At $.60 a round or possibly more, I'm going to have to change my way of living, lol.

Agreed. Unfortunately its hit that time to shoot up my carry ammo and refresh. Gonna have to do some calculating and likely make a change.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I bought 150 rounds of the 124 gr +p 9mm stuff and 150 45acp earlier this year. **** 50 rounds of each and held on to the rest for carry ammo. Seems to be good stuff. This new pricing which I noticed on SGammo sucks. I was thinking about ordering another 200 rounds but with a 33% increase in price I think I'll have to wait for a sale.

 

[cheygriz]

Since ammo kept cool and dry lasts for st least 50 years, my four 50 round boxes of HST 147 grainers should last a lifetime.

 

[JR24]

Since ammo kept cool and dry lasts for st least 50 years, my four 50 round boxes of HST 147 grainers should last a lifetime.

As long as you dont carry it, or practice with it... sure.

Looks like Golden Saber (9mm, 147 g is 0.38/round on SGAMMO right now, I'll snag some of that, used it in the past and it shoots nice

 

[cheygriz]

I carry it every day.

Why on earth would you practice with duty ammo, when you can use much cheaper FMJ of the same weight??

I buy 147 grain plated bullets by the thousand and load them to duty ammo specs.

 

[JR24]

I carry it every day.

Why on earth would you practice with duty ammo, when you can use much cheaper FMJ of the same weight??

I buy 147 grain plated bullets by the thousand and load them to duty ammo specs.

Because it is still good to verify function and POI occasionally, especially since carried ammo is subjected to temperature and moisture changes constantly. Also to verify function in new mags or guns.

I also load 147 grain to shoot as close as I can get to my carry ammo. That was, in fact, the whole reason I got into reloading.

 

[cheygriz]

For you .40 cal guys. IMHO, the best of the best, and inexpensive to boot.

www.sgammo.com/product/40-cal-ammo/50-round-box-40-sw-caliber-165-grain-hollow-point-t-series-winchester-ranger-amm

 

[TomJ]

Ammunition Depot has HST 124 Grain +P for $26 for 50. It’s a little more than I’ve paid in the past, but still not bad.

 

[cheygriz]

Ammunition Depot has HST 124 Grain +P for $26 for 50. It’s a little more than I’ve paid in the past, but still not bad.

That's not bad at all. I see it on the shelf at the local "Mom 'n' Pop" scalpers for $20 for 20 rounds.

 

[Drail]

I really feel sorry for you guys that don't reload. I could not force myself to pay retail prices for ammo today. Hell, I couldn't do it 30 years ago. It's not that I'm cheap, just poor. L.E. only ammo is a total insult and complete B.S.

 

[cheygriz]

I really feel sorry for you guys that don't reload. I could not force myself to pay retail prices for ammo today. Hell, I couldn't do it 30 years ago. It's not that I'm cheap, just poor. L.E. only ammo is a total insult and complete B.S.

Many of us reload 99 percent of our ammo. However, we would never dream of carrying a hand load for a duty/carry/defence round.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I really feel sorry for you guys that don't reload. I could not force myself to pay retail prices for ammo today. Hell, I couldn't do it 30 years ago. It's not that I'm cheap, just poor. L.E. only ammo is a total insult and complete B.S.

I'm headed down the 99% load my own path, but when I start loading a new cartridge family it costs me $225 for startup on toolheads, dies, and conversion plates.

Do you know of a good source for HST bullets?

 

[JeffG]

I'll put my two cents in here... A large majority of premium hollow point pistol bullets are designed to limit penetration. HST especially. Defeating penetration is contrary to the wounding, and incapacitation function of handgun rounds. I shoot truncated FMJ in all my autos, 9mm, 40, hardball in 45acp. Reliability is stellar, and I don't pay through the nose.

 

[Drail]

To be perfectly honest back when I used to carry a 1911 (over 25 years ago) it was always loaded with 230 Ball. I want 100% reliable feeding, big holes and all the penetration I can get just like the military. Now I only carry big bore revolvers with heavy flat point hard cast slugs. And I always carry handloads. The ammo coming out of the factories today is just terrible. QC has gone right in the trash can. I've seen cases with primers smashed in sideways, upside down or no flash hole in the case. I'm not betting my life on stuff like that. I know for a fact that you can load ammo that is FAR MORE reliable than any currently available factory stuff and I have NEVER seen an actual case where any court got their panties in a wad because handloads were used. Personally I think the whole hollowpoint trend is just the result of good creative marketing by the ammo companies. I believe if you place it where it needs to go then bullet type is not really all that big of a deal. I might just be crazy though......

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I'll put my two cents in here... A large majority of premium hollow point pistol bullets are designed to limit penetration. HST especially. Defeating penetration is contrary to the wounding, and incapacitation function of handgun rounds. I shoot truncated FMJ in all my autos, 9mm, 40, hardball in 45acp. Reliability is stellar, and I don't pay through the nose.

Jeff your assessment of limited penetration is spot on. Some of us worry about too much penetration and that dictates what we choose to carry and the rounds we carry in them. Remember anyone that shoots someone in a justified manner can, and often is, charged not for the target, but whoever else was shot by the round that penetrated through the intended target. This is one of several reasons why I carry a .45ACP. ( The new 9MM ammo is far hotter than the old 9MM and while it may stop almost as well as a .45 ACP, it is also far more likely to over penetrate putting me at risk for charges and lawsuits.)

 

[ChanceMcCall]

To be perfectly honest back when I used to carry a 1911 (over 25 years ago) it was always loaded with 230 Ball. I want 100% reliable feeding, big holes and all the penetration I can get just like the military. Now I only carry big bore revolvers with heavy flat point hard cast slugs. And I always carry handloads. The ammo coming out of the factories today is just terrible. QC has gone right in the trash can. I've seen cases with primers smashed in sideways, upside down or no flash hole in the case. I'm not betting my life on stuff like that. I know for a fact that you can load ammo that is FAR MORE reliable than any currently available factory stuff and I have NEVER seen an actual case where any court got their panties in a wad because handloads were used. Personally I think the whole hollowpoint trend is just the result of good creative marketing by the ammo companies. I believe if you place it where it needs to go then bullet type is not really all that big of a deal. I might just be crazy though......

I agree that I do not know of a case where hand loaded ammo was successfully used in a prosecution. I am aware of numerous prosecutions where there was an effort to skew a self defense over hollow points. There is a case going on right now in Galesburg, Illinois (John Love) where the prosecutor stated that "the defendant was looking to kill someone because he loaded his gun with hollow point ammo" during the preliminary hearing. Of course, the defense will have at least one expert witness make that statement banal in the jury's eyes. There was a well written article at another website that discusses handholds for self defense in great detail and what any reloader should do aforehand to assist his/her attorney if the topic comes up.

 

[cheygriz]

I've had a District Attorney, three or four ADAs, and several private lawyers, as well as the NRA LE training division tell me not to carry hand loads.

No matter what the keyboard commandos write in the latest issue of "Guns R Us," I'll take the legal advice of experienced attorneys.

Has it ever caused a problem? I dunno! and I don't really care. If the professionals tell me it "might" cause a problem, I'll take their advice.

 

[JeffG]

Jeff your assessment of limited penetration is spot on. Some of us worry about too much penetration and that dictates what we choose to carry and the rounds we carry in them. Remember anyone that shoots someone in a justified manner can, and often is, charged not for the target, but whoever else was shot by the round that penetrated through the intended target. This is one of several reasons why I carry a .45ACP. ( The new 9MM ammo is far hotter than the old 9MM and while it may stop almost as well as a .45 ACP, it is also far more likely to over penetrate putting me at risk for charges and lawsuits.)

Yes. As a private citizen how often are you going to be forced to shoot? The overpenetration panacea was clung to by law enforcement agencies to protect the deep pockets of the government agency. Administrators envisioned hoards of officers working every shift, and the likelihood of an overpenetrating shot gave them anxiety. In truth, limiting penetration puts you, the defender at greater risk, by not assuring you of the ability to reach vital organs or the CNS, and shutting down the threat. Rifling spin and parachute HP bullet effect take a bullet off target once contact is made. To an agency, officer safety and effectiveness can sometimes take a back seat to a chief or sheriff worried about the bad press of a citizen getting hit.
Do you want to keep on shooting, or have line of sight penetration to your target?