LE Restricted HP Ammo

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JeffG said:
Yes. As a private citizen how often are you going to be forced to shoot? The overpenetration panacea was clung to by law enforcement agencies to protect the deep pockets of the government agency. Administrators envisioned hoards of officers working every shift, and the likelihood of an overpenetrating shot gave them anxiety. In truth, limiting penetration puts you, the defender at greater risk, by not assuring you of the ability to reach vital organs or the CNS, and shutting down the threat. Rifling spin and parachute HP bullet effect take a bullet off target once contact is made. To an agency, officer safety and effectiveness can sometimes take a back seat to a chief or sheriff worried about the bad press of a citizen getting hit.
Do you want to keep on shooting, or have line of sight penetration to your target?
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Jeff - Even one time with over penetration would be one too many for me especially without a department to back me up if there was collateral damage. In fairness, in years long ago I went through Quantico and later trained IBI agents on CQC so I could be colored by my background. But, I have also been in CQC situations and I had a lot of faith in 185 grain hollow points, and none of them failed to penetrate sufficiently. My current carry 230 grain Federal Hydra Shocks seems to average between 17-18" in ballistic gel. (.45ACP) It is also the reason I prefer #4 buckshot in a 12 gauge inside a house.

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinion and we normally develop them through our experiences which are often different.
 
ChanceMcCall said:
Jeff - Even one time with over penetration would be one too many for me especially without a department to back me up if there was collateral damage. In fairness, in years long ago I went through Quantico and later trained IBI agents on CQC so I could be colored by my background. But, I have also been in CQC situations and I had a lot of faith in 185 grain hollow points, and none of them failed to penetrate sufficiently. My current carry 230 grain Federal Hydra Shocks seems to average between 17-18" in ballistic gel. (.45ACP) It is also the reason I prefer #4 buckshot in a 12 gauge inside a house.

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinion and we normally develop them through our experiences which are often different.
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Agreed. 30+ years LEO firearms and use of force trainer here. I loved my issue 180 gr HST in the 40. I'm still an old Cooper student. Good thinking here all around!:thumbup:
 
This turned into a thread about pistol ammo over-penetration or the wisdom of carrying hand-loads? What is this thread about again?

I thought it was the OP complaining that the price of 50-round boxes of premium JHPs had gone way up from on-line ammo retailers ...

I'm still gonna buy my carry JHP loads from a couple select on-line retailers, and accept that prices will continue to rise. Get over it ...
 
I will not buy HST in 20 round boxes, principle.
I have a sufficient supply of HST 50 round boxes in various calibers, if/when that runs out then whatever, not 20 round boxes.
I already handload 10mm - new brass, Nosler 150 @ 1,402 fps and Nosler 180 @ 1,228 fps and am comfortable carrying either.
In 45 I loaded 160 Barnes Tac-XP @ 1,203 fps - good bullet, aint cheap, probably co$t more than HST 20 round, neither is principle.
 
For people who want deeper bullet penetration than what 9mm HST and Ranger "T" Series bullets offer there is the 135gr Hydra-Shok Deep.
 
I call BS. The price is what the customer base wants to pay, not how many rounds are in a box. Too many folks think they need(for legal reasons and effectiveness), ammo with LE on the box. These same folks are buying the 50 round boxes for cost and convenience. Law enforcement agencies buy in large quantities from places that give LE discounts. Not a few boxes at a time from an internet source or gun club. Seems like a marketing ploy to raise the price with a fabricated explanation to justify it.

Like many others, since I roll my own, it has no impact on me.
 
Old Dog said:
This turned into a thread about pistol ammo over-penetration or the wisdom of carrying hand-loads? What is this thread about again?

I thought it was the OP complaining that the price of 50-round boxes of premium JHPs had gone way up from on-line ammo retailers ...

I'm still gonna buy my carry JHP loads from a couple select on-line retailers, and accept that prices will continue to rise. Get over it ...
Click to expand...

I started the thread, don't mind the drift as if the prices of HST's continue to rise then I'll probably want to explore some other carry options. It's great carrying a load I'm confident will expand and also penetrate (even at only standard pressures/velocities), but if I have to go to a cheaper bullet and give up a little expansion then I will (most likely). Or go the other direction. There appear to be some loadings that out perform the HST but as the price was almost twice as much, I kind of settled for the more affordable HSTs. Yeah, in the end I'll get over it but I'll take some time to bitch and moan about it while I'm grieving the situation. ;)
 
I would suggest that if the HST is your preferred ammo, buy while it is available for the price willing to pay. Before CA got cut off, most shops had the 9mm 20 round boxes at ~$18 plus local sales tax. The 50 packs online from SGA were $26 and factor in shipping they were about $30/box. Want to recall that the last 50 round box was priced at $34 locally. Not earthshaking different but if on a tight wallet, one likes a better ratio of spending.

Talk like this motivates buying so for all of us that may have limited amounts, we'll now go out and buy up more. The cycle continues and talk creates more buying. ;) Might as well get some .22 LR as well. :p
 
The nice part is it's not like you need to order HPs that often. I mean yeah function check now and then but honestly I only buy carry ammo about every other year.
 
I actually got 124 gr +p 50 round boxes from SG about four months ago for $19.99 a box. 230gr 45s were $24.99. I was surprised by the new prices.

Still reasonable though.
 
460Shooter said:
I actually got 124 gr +p 50 round boxes from SG about four months ago for $19.99 a box. 230gr 45s were $24.99. I was surprised by the new prices.

Still reasonable though.
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You are right, I had to look at my past orders and the individual 50 box of HST was $19.95. SUPER price compared to local. My fuzzy memory. :confused:
 
RA40 said:
You are right, I had to look at my past orders and the individual 50 box of HST was $19.95. SUPER price compared to local. My fuzzy memory. :confused:
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I was buying them for $400 a case shipped and wasn't being shy about shooting them at that price. I've still got several boxes on the shelf, will certainly take longer to go through them.

I gave up all most all my Glocks and switched to other pistols so there was a lot of relaibility testing going on. No planning on making a sweeping change like that any time soon.
 
I've currently been buying up the Sig V-Crown 9mm boxes I've found locally for 12 bux a box.

These rounds function in all of my guns and seem to be quality inexpensive rounds.

I've been using them and with the current pricing will continue to use them.

YMMV...
 
As I reload both .380 and .38/.357, there is something I have been doing with the HP ammo for over 25 years. After assembled, I take a very sharp knife and put an "X" (or "+") across the tops of some of the bullets. The cuts are 1/16 to 1/8" deep on the .380 and 1/8 to 3/16" deep on the .38/.357.
I have never had a chance to test them in gelatin so I have no idea if they will expand or fragment. That's why only some of the bullets are altered.
 
Some places have started to restrict sales to LEO only. There were a couple of vendors I use that started requesting LEO qualifications and placing a disclaimer on the ammo around the same time the prices started rising.
 
cheygriz said:
I've had a District Attorney, three or four ADAs, and several private lawyers, as well as the NRA LE training division tell me not to carry hand loads.

No matter what the keyboard commandos write in the latest issue of "Guns R Us," I'll take the legal advice of experienced attorneys.

Has it ever caused a problem? I dunno! and I don't really care. If the professionals tell me it "might" cause a problem, I'll take their advice.
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I'm paraphrasing (possibly badly) here, but Massad Ayoob says the same basic thing; while it shouldn't be a problem, if it comes to a trial it's one more thing your defense has to explain away, and that costs a lot money. why give a jury one more possible excuse to find you guilty. it falls into the same category as punisher grips, 'fvck you' dust covers, lightened triggers, and other modifications you can make (possibly legitimately) to your weapon that now have to be explained away. you chose this factory made, highly tested, security/police issued ammo because it's well vetted at stopping a threat, and that was your goal... to stop the threat.

I'm not saying you can't or you shouldn't roll your own defensive ammo, but just understand you're taking on a risk/reward analysis here, so how much more cost are you willing to take on for your legal defense after you shoot someone. given i'd expect it be at least a $100,000 issue (my estimate) just for an outside-mainstream ammo choice alone, I could buy a lot of cases of gun food for that.
 
As far as handloads as defensive ammo the article I read on it (written by a lawyer), the summarized logic of the worst case scenario is that the prosecution essentially gets to determine the ballistics of your handloads. This is in comparison to production ammo where the ballistics are dictated by the ammunition.

As far as "law enforcement exclusive" ammunition I'm inclined to agree with the it's a scheme line of thinking.
 
ALl of these legal horror stories won't matter at all if your fancy factory designer hollowpoint round does not fire and you get a click instead of a bang. The only way I would trust a factory round (anyone's) is if I pull it down, inspect the case's flash hole and the powder and primer, resize the case, flare it and then put it all back together. Now after I do all that - is it still a factory loaded round? Would a court be able to tell? I have taken factory Gold Dot rounds and done just that. I have also carefully pulled down other factory rounds only because I wanted that particular bullet but the manufacturer will not sell me just the bullet. Would the prosecution's experts be able to tell what I did and would it make any difference to the prosecution? Say for example a Speer bullet loaded into a Federal case with a Federal primer but with the original factory powder charge and bullet. Even if they could spot it what possible difference does it make since I used the same bullet and powder as the orignal manufacturer? All I changed was the case and the primer which hardly makes the round more "deadly". But now I KNOW that it will fire - not I HOPE that it fires. I shouldn't have to do the ammunition manufacturer's QC work but I KNOW that they cannot be trusted to do it for me. Would this be a crime? Why? Think about it. Any legal scholars - please jump in here.
 
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