LE Restricted HP Ammo

[JR24]

ALl of these legal horror stories won't matter at all if your factory designer hollowpoint round does not fire and you get a click instead of a bang. The only way I would trust a factory round (anyone's) is if I pull it down, inspect the case's flash hole and the powder and primer, resize the case, flare it and then put it all back together. Now after I do all that - is it still a factory loaded round? Would a court be able to tell? I have taken factory Gold Dot rounds and done just that. I have carefully pulled down other factory rounds only because I wanted that particular bullet but the manufacturer will not sell me just the bullet. Would the prosecution's experts be able to tell what I did and would it make any difference to the prosecution? Say for example a Speer bullet loaded into a Federal case with a Federal primer but with the original factory powder charge and bullet. Even if they could spot it what possible difference does it make since I used the same bullet and powder as the orignal manufacturer? All I changed was the case and the primer which hardly makes the round more "deadly". But now I KNOW that it will fire - not I HOPE that it fires. I shouldn't have to do the ammunition manufacturer's QC work but I KNOW that they cannot be trusted to do it for me. Would this be a crime? Why? Think about it. Any leagal scholars - please jump in here.

I dont know exactly how many factory hunting/SD "premium" type bullets I've fired, upwards of 2k at least and I've yet to have one fail on me.

Only rounds I've had go click were a few WWB and one UMC, and all fired on a second strike.

I have had more handloaded primers fail on me, several CCI small pistol and a few winchester.

I would trust premium SD ammo to fire over handloads from my experience.

 

[Drail]

Back in the 80s I once watched a famous factory sponsored shooter (Tom Campbell) at a National Match and he was in first place and had the title in his hand but on the last stage one of his factory loaded rounds failed to fire and he lost the match. He saved that round and took it home, pulled it down, inspected the round and found to his amazement there was no flash hole in the case. None. So he lost the match and all of his travel expenses for food and lodging and entry fees and ammo costs because of one factory round "mistake". I'm pretty sure that he NEVER trusted factory ammo again. Now this was only a Match, right? Who cares? What if you have to pull your gun in a dark parking lot some night and you have one of those rounds chambered in your gun? Just because you have never in your life seen a factory round with no flash hole does not mean that they aren't floating around out there. They are. I have seen them. I know parachutists who will not let ANYONE else pack their main or reserve chute - they will not be satisfied with HOPING it opens - they must KNOW that it will.

 

[cheygriz]

In my 22 years of LE, 15 as a police instructor, I never saw, or even heard of a a round of our factory duty ammo failing.

This is a red herring.

 

[JR24]

Back in the 80s I once watched a famous factory sponsored shooter (Tom Campbell) at a National Match and he was in first place and had the title in his hand but on the last stage one of his factory loaded rounds failed to fire and he lost the match. He saved that round and took it home, pulled it down, inspected the round and found to his amazement there was no flash hole in the case. None. So he lost the match and all of his travel expenses for food and lodging and entry fees and ammo costs because of one factory round "mistake". I'm pretty sure that he NEVER trusted factory ammo again. Now this was only a Match, right? Who cares? What if you have to pull your gun in a dark parking lot some night and you have one of those rounds chambered in your gun? Just because you have never in your life seen a factory round with no flash hole does not mean that they aren't floating around out there. They are. I have seen them. I know parachutists who will not let ANYONE else pack their main or reserve chute - they will not be satisfied with HOPING it opens - they must KNOW that it will.

I mean, if you are that paranoid from one event how can you ever trust your ammo. Primers fail, it happens. Theres no way to guarantee they'll fully ignite

 

[cheygriz]

Or what about if you're pulling the trigger and your mainspring breaks???

Are ya never gonna trust factory mainsprings again??

 

[RETG]

Legal problem or not, I cannot say. however, I have been shooting factory ammo my entire life, in many countries, made by some unknown ammo manufactures, and probably have enough hanging digits on my body to use in counting any failure to fires. And those would have been for those factory rounds from unknown manufacturers outside the USA.

 

[Drail]

deleted

 

[luzyfuerza]

Another argument for carrying factory defensive ammo involves giving your defense team the opportunity to confirm the approximate distance between you and the bad guy at the time of the shooting. This can be done by recording powder stipling, burns, and soot marks made by factory ammo of the same lot as you used in the shooting at various distances and then comparing these to the marks actually left on the bad guy.

Rounds taken into evidence (say unfired in your magazine) will almost never be used for this kind of testing...the test ammo typically has to come from the examples saved from each batch or lot that are retained by the manufacturer.

If you use reloaded ammo, you can't do this.

Stippling evidence can be critical. For example, in George Zimmerman's case, stippling evidence showed conclusively that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting; Martin's hoodie was burned, but his t-shirt wasn't, indicating that his hoodie was hanging away from his body. Zimmerman's legal team was able to conclusively prove this in court because they were able to get the factory ammo Zimmerman used and test it.

I carry factory ammo because I want to give myself every possible opportunity to confirm the facts of my case, should heaven forbid, I ever have to defend myself or my loved ones with my carry gun. Not because of any internet commando lore.

 

[cheygriz]

Bear in mind also that after a righteous shooting, prosecution by the state will probably be the least of your worries. The INEVITABLE civil lawsuit that follows will be the problem.

Remember, in a criminal proceeding, guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" must be proven. In the civil proceeding that follows, the much lower standard of "preponderance of evidence" is used.

 

[JR24]

Bear in mind also that after a righteous shooting, prosecution by the state will probably be the least of your worries. The INEVITABLE civil lawsuit that follows will be the problem.

Remember, in a criminal proceeding, guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" must be proven. In the civil proceeding that follows, the much lower standard of "preponderance of evidence" is used.

There are a number of states where successful criminal defense protects you from resultant civil suits in SD shootings.

Also, no amount of bankruptcy is going to worry me more than a felony conviction and multiple years in prison.

 

[cheygriz]

There are a number of states where successful criminal defense protects you from resultant civil suits in SD shootings.

Also, no amount of bankruptcy is going to worry me more than a felony conviction and multiple years in prison.

If the shooting was righteous, there is little likelihood of successful criminal prosecution to the "reasonable doubt" standard.


But there are many other states where it does not. and there are lawyers just salivating at the thought of going after you, right or wrong.

 

[JR24]

Luckily I live in a protected state then.

While we are on it. Can any of our lawyers point to civil cases that were won over a reichous SD shooting?

 

[sota]

civil cases aren't always "won", but settled, which still costs you.