lead poisoning

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I've seen the terrible result of lead poisoning in cattle. Oral chelation with Calcium EDTA revived and saved one cow that was so far down with lead poisnoning that she was emaciated, blind and convulsing. About once a year I now take a course of Calcium EDTA. Google Calcuim EDTA and Chelation.

I'm not a doctor. There's a lot more old drunks than there are old doctors. Thanks, Willie.
 
pax said:
Mighty Hd ~

Yes, generally there is, although with really good ventilation you should still be okay.

What I have always understood is that if you can taste the lead in the air, you are getting a pretty large dose of it. Whether that's on an outdoor range or an indoor one, it's not a good thing.

pax
That is EXACTLY it. If you leave the range with a sweet taste in the back of your throat, you just ingested a lot of lead. Lead oxides are sweet. (Thus kids eating paint chips with lead in it...) If you're tasting that, it is time for either a new place to shoot or a respirator when you go to the same joint.
 
Does the stuff like purell hand sanitizer work? I hope so because I have been swabbing my hands with it after range sessions... :scrutiny:
 
Nitrogen said:
Does the stuff like purell hand sanitizer work? I hope so because I have been swabbing my hands with it after range sessions... :scrutiny:
Nowhere near as well as the emulsifying action of soap, water, and scrubbing. Like two-three minutes of it, no less. If you haven't had a chance to honestly do that sort of scrubdown to your hands and face, don't eat until you can, or failing that, consider the knife and fork instead of handling the food.
 
Sanitizers only kill germs -- they do not remove particulate matter (such as lead) except perhaps by accident.

In my car I keep a package of baby wipes, a roll of paper towels, and a gallon jug of water. I use a wipie first to get the worst of the grime off and so that my hands aren't too bad touching the jug. Then I drizzle a little water over first one hand & then the other, then scrub hands together while they are dripping wet. Drizzle a bit more water. Scrub, drizzle. Scrub, drizzle again. Dry with a clean paper towel. Then wipe face & blow nose, followed by a final scrub, drizzle, & dry.

It's not as good as 2 minutes under running water with lots of soap, but it is good enough to get me home on.

pax
 
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pax nailed it.

The hand sanitizers are really hand germ killers. They don't do anything to REMOVE anything from your hands, they only kill a large percentage of the microorganisms present.

You need soap and water--or at the very least hand wipes if there are no facilities.
 
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pax said:
Mighty Hd ~

Yes, generally there is, although with really good ventilation you should still be okay.

What I have always understood is that if you can taste the lead in the air, you are getting a pretty large dose of it. Whether that's on an outdoor range or an indoor one, it's not a good thing.

pax

So what does it "taste" like? Like you have an old penny in your mouth?

The range I frequent to is indoors, you can smell a distinct smell when you walk throught the 2nd door, and the A/C vents have black stuff on them.

It does get quite smokey in there when all 6 lanes are taken up.
 
Another thing to consider

A lot of us reload, many with lead rather than jacketed bullets. Lead exposure can be high around your tumbler, if you use one to remove case lube as a final step. Oh, and ARperson, mucho congrats on the little one on the way. My wife and I have a 16 month old son. The most work and the most fun either of us have ever had.
 
Many years ago, when I first started casting my own bullets, I melted the lead in an enclosed room the first day. I recall becoming very sick with flu-like symptoms for days after that. Big mistake. Luckily, I'm pretty sure that I didn't suffer any permanant drain bamage.
Biker:confused:
 
Congratulations ARPerson!

Excellent ventilation is imperitive for anyone where lead may be an issue.

Reloaders and bullet casters should have all their equipment in a fume hood. These are easy to make yourself out of materials as cheap as cast off box fans and cardboard boxes. Just be sure to pull the air through the system and exhaust it outside away from your HVAC system. You should have a large volume of air pulled over your gear.

For shooters, your range should have enough air movement to keep the air clear even during the heaviest range usage. This alone won't guarantee that airborne lead levels are not too high because indoor ranges usually recirculate some of the air to save on heating/cooling costs. This can recirculate the contaminated air unless filtration removes it. You have every reason to ask the range if they've sampled the air and what the air sample results were. Air concentrations should be below 30 micrograms per cubic meter of air (30 µg/m3) for an 8 hr day exposure. This is OSHA's threshold for requireing an employer to implement controls for airborne lead. This is well below the Permissible Exposure Limit of 50 µg/m3 and is intended to allow an employer to verify their engineering controls are effective without implementing a more extensive lead control program.

The next most important issue realted to lead overexposure is hygiene. Not whether you brush your teeth or wear deodorant, but keeping the lead off of you and thereby out of you. You can do this by washing up to the elbows at the range with copious amounts of tepid water. At home take a good soapy shower (just as the shooter should do when they get home). Not taking any food or drink(or smokes or gum or applying lotion or makeup) into the area where lead might be present. Changing clothes before potentially contaminating yourself, vehicle, home, others. Wash any potentially contaminated clothing by itself and wash it twice. When through run the washing machine again without the clothing to be sure that it's well rinsed out. It may not be practical for shooters going to an indoor range to change clothes before leaving. It is advisable to at least wear a light long sleeved shirt and a hat on the range and put them immediately into a bag upon leaving the range prior to washing up.

Potentially lead contaminated surfaces should be wet cleaned and not swept/dusted. Wet wipes or wet towels work well because you can throw them into a garbage bag and seal it up. Use surface cleaners if you aren't using wep wipes. If you have a HEPA vacuum cleaner like the Nilfisk, you can vac all the surfaces, but you should then wet wipe them to remove material the vac didn't get.

http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-lead.htm is one of the good websites explaining lead exposure issues for folks, but there are scores of good ones available. Others include - http://itrcweb.org/Documents/SMART-2.pdf, http://www.rangeinfo.org/resource_l...ty Management&SubCat=Environmental Management,
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/lead/shoot.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ranges/, http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5423a1.htm, http://www.mass.gov/dos/leaddocs/lead_firing.htm, http://www.mass.gov/dos/iaqdocs/iaq-404.htm,
 
Heavy metal toxicity is serious. and not just lead, but mercury, cadmium, arsenic, aluminum, etc. In different forms, they can be absorbed thru the skin, orally, and from vapor or from outgassing or disturbance of mercury amalgum "silver" dental fillings. It is also injected as common preservatives in drugs and vaccines ie thimerisol and aluminum salts. Many topical antiseptics or salves contain heavy metals including almost all contact lens solutions throughout the 80's and into the 90's as well as some "diaper rash" lotions. There is a decreased ability of the body to release some metals such as lead or aluminum when murcery levels are elevated. Toxic metals can cross the blood-brain barrier and placenta in some chemical forms. the body chemically converts these metals and they can become concentrated in the central nervous system, bone, or fat, as the body loses its ability to mobilize and release them.
Blood tests are not always a reliable assessment of heavy metal tox, nor is hair or tissue analysis by itself. diagnosis of a heavy metal illness can be very complicated and most physicians are uneducated in this area.
The "challenge" tests measuring urine excretion of heavy metals after injections of an agent (such as DMSA/LA) can verify a toxic load but can also be very dangerous.
There are different kinds of chelation therapy, some effective some times, some not at all, and some possibly detrimental.
The Betagard(tm) mentioned in a previous reply is simply a batch of synthetic vitamins sold by what appears to be a multi-level marketing company and is typical of many of the claims and products being sold everywhere. Buyer beware.
Heavy metal exposure is much more common, and detoxification and chelation therapy is much more complicated, than most people realize.
Threads like this should resurface frequently to raise the awareness of the good folks here and elsewhere in the shooting community. Take precautions whenever possible to limit exposure.
(sorry for the sermon- off the soapbox for now)
 
20mg/dl is an acceptable level. I worked at a lead smelter for 23 years and toward the end. our plant medical removal level was 40, and we were allowed to return to work out in the plant when it dropped to below 30. I think the OSHA removal level is 50. I knew a couple people there who could work in contaminated areas and seldom wear their respirator and never end up with elevated blood lead levels. A handful of others, myself included, were just the opposite and couldn't keep our lead levels down no matter what we did and would spend four to six months every year on plant medical removal doing janitorial work in the bath houses/change houses or administrative work in the offices. I developed a perforated septum from exposure to acid fume, cadmium, lead, and copper. The doc says it's not a threat to my health, but it makes my nose give an odd whistle now and then. When I started at the plant back in the 70's, before OSHA regs mandated medical removal at a certain level, respirators were optional and it wasn't uncommon for someone to be 80, 90, or even above 100 on occasion.
 
I have a question. I go to an indoor range about once per month, and I reload on occasion, though mostly with jacketed bullets. I really don't want to run to the doctor to get tested, but is there a home test kit I could use on occasion? I know that diabetics have a home test kit, but is there such a thing for lead?
Mauserguy
 
short answer- NO
Heavy metal toxicity in general, and lead specifically, is much more complicated than blood tests alone.
Detoxification/chelation therapy is also very complex.
I don't have all the answers either, but I have some background in biochem/physiology and hundreds of pages of published and unpublished resource material.
 
Is it primarily a concern with lead bullets? What if a person only shoots copper-clad bullets? Is there less of a concern? :confused:
 
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If the bullet is TOTALLY copper clad, lead exposure is reduced somewhat. Most jacketed pistol bullets leave the base exposed.

Then again, some of the lead exposure comes from the lead compounds in the primers. There is debate as to which is most significant. I saw an article some time ago that indicated that the primers were the primary contributors but more recent information I have read seems to indicate the opposite. Either way, it seems clear that it's more than just the bullets.

Of course, this is probably moot if you're shooting at a busy indoor range unless you can get everyone there to use lead free ammo.
 
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Mauserguy said:
I have a question. I go to an indoor range about once per month, and I reload on occasion, though mostly with jacketed bullets. I really don't want to run to the doctor to get tested, but is there a home test kit I could use on occasion? I know that diabetics have a home test kit, but is there such a thing for lead?
Mauserguy

No, but a blood lead should only be around $50 plus whatever the office visit costs.
 
Molon Labe said:
Is it primarily a concern with lead bullets? What if a person only shoots copper-clad bullets? Is there less of a concern? :confused:

Are you saying that you only reload FMJ or are you asking about only shooting FMJ?

If you don't have any exposed lead then you shouldn't have a source for the lead in reloading.

If you have a private range that no one else shoots on then the use of FMJ over exposed lead bullets will have some benefit. OTOH if you have a private range you could just switch to non lead bullets altogether.

If you don't have a private range then it's what you shoot as well as everyone else shoots that provides the exposure.

Lead is in the primer and bullet. If the bullet is jacketed it won't vaporize or abrade any lead upon shooting. If that jacketed bullet strikes a backstop that doesn't rupture the jacket then it doesn't contribute lead to the shooter's environment. That leaves the lead based primer which is ~50% lead. This is near the shooter and contributes to inhaltion as well as ingestion (ingestion if you don't change clothes and wash up). You need very good ventilation to mitigate the exposure from the primer.

If everyone is using FMJ and the backstop doesn't rupture the jacket then the only lead the ventilation system has to deal with is from the primer. If the air is not recirculated or the recirculated portion is adequately filtered then lead exposure is highly reduced.

It is not difficult for indoor ranges to keep the airborne lead levels within acceptable limits. It just costs a little of the profit they're taking from you, the recreational shooter.
 
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contrary to what its name implies, FMJ bullets don't necessarily have a covered base. they have a metal jacket over the areas which make contact with the rifling, but not necessarily on the base. so when the power ignites it burns off some of the exposed lead base which contributes to the airborne lead problem(in addition to the other lead components of a cartridge).
 
hso:

Thanks for the reply.

I do not reload. I shoot in our backyard. I only shoot milsurp NATO 7.62 X 51 from a FAL. The bullets are copper clad. (Not sure about the bullet base.)
 
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You could pull one and see, but I would bet that they have an exposed lead base.
 
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I was tested high for lead

A couple years ago my brother tested out at 42 lead, I tested out at 24. We attributed it to running IPSC matches at an indoor range where we pick stuff up off the floor, tape things to the floor, take tape off of floor ... lotsa lead laying aorund indoor ranges, especially when those ranges aren't washing the place down as often (or at all) as they are supposed to.

Now, when I go to indoor matches, I don't clean up or help out, or RO. I shoot for fun, not to ruin my health.
 
Molon Labe said:
hso:

Thanks for the reply.

I do not reload. I shoot in our backyard. I only shoot milsurp NATO 7.62 X 51 from a FAL. The bullets are copper clad. (Not sure about the bullet base.)

Yup, me too. The milsurp bullets will have an open base.

Got any kids? If so, and your very concerned, wipe your hands well with a wet wipe before going in and wipe your FAL down also before putting her away. Be sure to change clothes and wash up after shooting and to wash up after cleaning that FAL. (What type? Izzy, Argie, Imbel, SA, Frankenfal?)
 
Just thought I would post an update. After 10 months of no indoor ranges my lead level has droped from 20mg/dl to 12mg/dl. I still shoot almost every weekend sat & sun IDPA/USPSA. Just no longer indoors.
 
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