Lead Poisoning --Valuable Health Information
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There is an article in the Dallas Morning News today that claims high lead exposure (even many decades ago) has shown decreased brain function in adults years later. The average brain may act as if it were 5 years older than the individual really is and can include loss of function and exhibiting the same traits as rapid aging of the memory.
They did not mention firearms and reloading but they did mention lead dust that is present on machining equipment, lead paint flaking off in older homes & the dust that can come from that, and even prolonged use of lead crystal glasses (who knew). Lead pipes in old homes were a huge contributor but that would still pale in comparison to indoor shooting without good ventilation.
Honestly if you look how much lead dust accumulates in your suppressor that might help in keeping it out of the air while you shoot? It traps sound, unburned powder, and alot of dust/crud that you have to clean out of the baffles. Just maybe a plug for using a suppressor on your pistol (on top of the many other benefits).
Just something to *think* about. Be safe!
They did not mention firearms and reloading but they did mention lead dust that is present on machining equipment, lead paint flaking off in older homes & the dust that can come from that, and even prolonged use of lead crystal glasses (who knew). Lead pipes in old homes were a huge contributor but that would still pale in comparison to indoor shooting without good ventilation.
Honestly if you look how much lead dust accumulates in your suppressor that might help in keeping it out of the air while you shoot? It traps sound, unburned powder, and alot of dust/crud that you have to clean out of the baffles. Just maybe a plug for using a suppressor on your pistol (on top of the many other benefits).
Just something to *think* about. Be safe!
How dangerous is the lead you can track away from the range on your shoes and clothes? I cannot bear the thought of my shooting, which is recreational, causing someone else's kids to have developmental problems.
I know to wash off my shoes and wash my clothes separately. Doesn't that lead end up in the water, though? Is the amount so small that it doesn't matter?
I have all either TMJ w/lead-free primer or fully non-toxic ammunition, so I'm not adding to the dust at the firing line (although the TMJ could produce some dust on impact with the bullet stop/trap).
Am I overly paranoid about this stuff?
Thanks.
I know to wash off my shoes and wash my clothes separately. Doesn't that lead end up in the water, though? Is the amount so small that it doesn't matter?
I have all either TMJ w/lead-free primer or fully non-toxic ammunition, so I'm not adding to the dust at the firing line (although the TMJ could produce some dust on impact with the bullet stop/trap).
Am I overly paranoid about this stuff?
Thanks.
Try the latex gloves from the big home supply stores. They are sold in small quantities. This keeps powder and lead from your fingers for the most part, and brass will not wear the oil or prints from your fingers. Wear one glove at a time-this keeps one hand free to operate or do other tasks. A practical, inexpensive way to limit exposure while reloading...
Black Jaque Janaviac
Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2008
- Messages
- 14
I noticed a few people inquiring about lead-free primers. I looked into that a month or so ago and learned why they aren't readily available to the reloader market.
The lead free priming compound behaves differently than the lead styphinate. As a result some of the non-toxic factory ammo producers learned that they needed to enlarge the flash hole. So I guess they had problems when using a lead-free primer with a standard flash-hole.
There are other problems with the lead-free priming compounds absorbing water on a humid day. This is not a big deal for factory ammo where they can seal the primers good. But if a manufacturer's reputation is riding on the product and some reload has 1,000 primer sitting on a shelf in a damp basement for months . . . the manufacturer may hesitate to make these primers available.
From what I gather it sounds as though the biggest problems are lead vapor and lead dust. Lead vapor can be easily controlled by shooting outdoors and/or proper ventilation indoors. But the lead dust is a little more difficult to deal with. I can control the dust during tumbling by moistening the media or adding dryer sheets or sweeping compound, I can do the tumbling outdoors. But how do you control the dust generated by depriming?
I use a Lee Turret press and I'd hate like heck to deprime somewhere other than the press. And the Turret press I have sends those spend primers all over tarnation. I'm wondering if anyone has any good solutions to control dust while depriming?
As for casting, my understanding is the lead should not be vaporizing. You're more at risk from the dust from lead oxides generated from dross and lead bars sitting around. That's easy to control simply by wearing gloves while casting (should be doing that anyway) and putting the dross directly in the garbage. I don't believe that the exploding powder really generated all that much lead vapor while shooting cast bullets. My bet is that if you simply switched to lead free primers that would take care of it. Unless you're getting lots of blow-by or leading in the barrel - then you're generating lead vapor. But then you'll likely correct the problem because those types of loads don't shoot worth a hoot.
The lead free priming compound behaves differently than the lead styphinate. As a result some of the non-toxic factory ammo producers learned that they needed to enlarge the flash hole. So I guess they had problems when using a lead-free primer with a standard flash-hole.
There are other problems with the lead-free priming compounds absorbing water on a humid day. This is not a big deal for factory ammo where they can seal the primers good. But if a manufacturer's reputation is riding on the product and some reload has 1,000 primer sitting on a shelf in a damp basement for months . . . the manufacturer may hesitate to make these primers available.
From what I gather it sounds as though the biggest problems are lead vapor and lead dust. Lead vapor can be easily controlled by shooting outdoors and/or proper ventilation indoors. But the lead dust is a little more difficult to deal with. I can control the dust during tumbling by moistening the media or adding dryer sheets or sweeping compound, I can do the tumbling outdoors. But how do you control the dust generated by depriming?
I use a Lee Turret press and I'd hate like heck to deprime somewhere other than the press. And the Turret press I have sends those spend primers all over tarnation. I'm wondering if anyone has any good solutions to control dust while depriming?
As for casting, my understanding is the lead should not be vaporizing. You're more at risk from the dust from lead oxides generated from dross and lead bars sitting around. That's easy to control simply by wearing gloves while casting (should be doing that anyway) and putting the dross directly in the garbage. I don't believe that the exploding powder really generated all that much lead vapor while shooting cast bullets. My bet is that if you simply switched to lead free primers that would take care of it. Unless you're getting lots of blow-by or leading in the barrel - then you're generating lead vapor. But then you'll likely correct the problem because those types of loads don't shoot worth a hoot.
Black Jaque Janaviac
Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2008
- Messages
- 14
Probably.
Think dust and vapor and ingestion/inhalation routes. If your clothes carry some lead dust and you visit your buddy who has kids and they tug at your pant legs they're probably getting some minute amount of lead. BUT unless you make it a daily, or weekly habit of visiting your buddy in those same clothes those kids are not at risk. It's your own kids who you see every day that are more at risk.
Aged In Oak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
- Messages
- 16
Thanks for the interesting info on non-toxic primers. I'd been looking for some just to try out in reloading. Supposedly Magtech and PMC both manufacture and sell them, but I haven't been able to find any ANYWHERE, online or in stores. The problems with them you mention are interesting. I was wondering why Federal, Speer, Winchester, etc. made cleanfire ammo that included non-toxic primers, but wouldn't sell the primers separately!
As for the question of being paranoid, I wouldn't let it keep me up at night, but it's certainly worth being careful and taking reasonable precautions when shooting, cleaning, and reloading. There's no question that getting lead into your system is bad news, so the more you can limit your exposure the better, I say.
Black Jaque Janaviac
Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2008
- Messages
- 14
I guess the paranoia is defined by how far you go to limit your exposure. Wearing a "moon-suit" to the shooting range would certainly limit your exposure, but I think that exhibits a tinge of paranoia.
I just ran some tests on the interior surfaces of my make-shift fume hood for casting bullets. The soot that builds up from fluxing (wax burning) has lead in it. So whatever they say about melting lead not sending lead airborne is not true. The lead may never reach boiling temperature, but the flames and smoke from fluxing can carry lead particulates up.
The fume hood does a good job at keeping the fumes out of my face and out of the garage. I have a special set of leather gloves which are dedicated to casting bullets only. I also wear a shop apron; however upon testing the soot I think I will go to Goodwill and pick up an old jean-jacket which will become my dedicated casting smock. It's quite simple. Put on the clothes while casting. Take 'em off when done. Lead stays on the clothes, in the garage.
MikePGS
Member
Try midwayusa.com for Magtech's clean range lead-free primers.
Aged In Oak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
- Messages
- 16
No success there. They sell Magtech primers, but not the Cleanrange variety, at least according to the website. Also checked in with their customer service department, who said they don't carry them and have no plans to at present.
Aged In Oak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
- Messages
- 16
No success there. They sell Magtech primers, but not the Cleanrange variety, at least according to the website. Also checked in with their customer service department, who said they don't carry them and have no plans to at present.
infantrytrophy
Member
lead exposure
Great posts in this thread.
I am a physician (retired) but have no specific expertise in lead-related toxicology other than that learned many years ago in medical school. Lead is a cumulative toxin, so prevention is preferable to treatment after exposure. Common sense measures do help to prevent tissue accumulation, mainly through inhalation and ingestion.
As a common sense approach, it seems prudent to ensure that your indoor range is ventilated. Our local indoor range has a strict policy of not allowing anyone onto the range floor forward of the firing line. Part of the reason for this is related to lead-containing firing residues that accumulate on the floor. Whatever pistol brass that falls forward of the firing line cannot be swept back; it is just left until properly cleared periodically.
When reloading at home, you should avoid breathing dust from the tumbler. Wear gloves during or wash your hands after handling brass from the tumbler. Use of a face mask is not unreasonable.
My reloading press, a Forster Co-Ax press, has a closed system consisting of a tube extending from the ram to a covered plastic cup that captures and stores the decapped primers. This prevents dust from the primers from accumulating on and around the press.
When cleaning or uniforming the primer pockets, use gloves (or wash hands afterwards) and work over a disposable paper towel to catch the primer residue. The paper towel can be discarded immediately afterwards.
Keep up the good work! I am looking forward to others' tips and techniques to avoid or reduce the lead exposure.
Great posts in this thread.
I am a physician (retired) but have no specific expertise in lead-related toxicology other than that learned many years ago in medical school. Lead is a cumulative toxin, so prevention is preferable to treatment after exposure. Common sense measures do help to prevent tissue accumulation, mainly through inhalation and ingestion.
As a common sense approach, it seems prudent to ensure that your indoor range is ventilated. Our local indoor range has a strict policy of not allowing anyone onto the range floor forward of the firing line. Part of the reason for this is related to lead-containing firing residues that accumulate on the floor. Whatever pistol brass that falls forward of the firing line cannot be swept back; it is just left until properly cleared periodically.
When reloading at home, you should avoid breathing dust from the tumbler. Wear gloves during or wash your hands after handling brass from the tumbler. Use of a face mask is not unreasonable.
My reloading press, a Forster Co-Ax press, has a closed system consisting of a tube extending from the ram to a covered plastic cup that captures and stores the decapped primers. This prevents dust from the primers from accumulating on and around the press.
When cleaning or uniforming the primer pockets, use gloves (or wash hands afterwards) and work over a disposable paper towel to catch the primer residue. The paper towel can be discarded immediately afterwards.
Keep up the good work! I am looking forward to others' tips and techniques to avoid or reduce the lead exposure.
Last edited:
MikePGS
Member
I could've sworn they had them there before...
CrankyCrash
Member
This is an excellent thread. I've been shooting on a weekly basis for 4+ years and just recently started to reload.
I will be relocating my tumbler to the shed tonight!
Thanks
I will be relocating my tumbler to the shed tonight!
Thanks
Moratorium on Reloading
I've decided to put reloading on hiatus. I have a 5 month old son. Regrettably, I've been reloading in our living room since my wife was 7 months pregnant. Only recently, I discovered that primers contain lead styphnate, and spent primer residue contains lead.:banghead: Tumbling and separating brass, and decapping are messy operations. Primer residue gets everywhere.
Out of curiosity, I purchased home lead test kits (Homax Lead Check) from Home Depot.
These are swabs activated by crushing two internal reagent vials. Presence of lead results in a pink/red color. These kits are screening tests only and are not a substitute for real laboratory tests.
Consumer Reports on Home Lead Tests
Consumer Product Safety Commission on Home Lead Tests
As a positive control, I swabbed the inside of the plastic box containing soft point bullets. Expectedly, the result was an intense pink/red.
Positive results were also found on...
Negative results on...
I always clean all work areas and thoroughly wash my hands after reloading. My press is mounted to my computer desk only while in active use, and all my equipment is kept in a storage closet. But, why put my child at risk by storing and handling lead in his living quarters. Until I buy a home with a garage or work space separate from the living areas, I will no longer reload inside the home. I'm packing up everything for storage outside the home.
I've decided to put reloading on hiatus. I have a 5 month old son. Regrettably, I've been reloading in our living room since my wife was 7 months pregnant. Only recently, I discovered that primers contain lead styphnate, and spent primer residue contains lead.:banghead: Tumbling and separating brass, and decapping are messy operations. Primer residue gets everywhere.
Out of curiosity, I purchased home lead test kits (Homax Lead Check) from Home Depot.
These are swabs activated by crushing two internal reagent vials. Presence of lead results in a pink/red color. These kits are screening tests only and are not a substitute for real laboratory tests.
Consumer Reports on Home Lead Tests
Consumer Product Safety Commission on Home Lead Tests
As a positive control, I swabbed the inside of the plastic box containing soft point bullets. Expectedly, the result was an intense pink/red.
Positive results were also found on...
- spent primer catcher on reloading press
- plastic bin containing reloading equipment (outside surface)
- brass tumbler lid (outside surface)
- metal box stored in proximity of reloading press (outside surface)
Negative results on...
- Reloading desk (aka computer desk)
- Baby swing
I always clean all work areas and thoroughly wash my hands after reloading. My press is mounted to my computer desk only while in active use, and all my equipment is kept in a storage closet. But, why put my child at risk by storing and handling lead in his living quarters. Until I buy a home with a garage or work space separate from the living areas, I will no longer reload inside the home. I'm packing up everything for storage outside the home.
Wow, I was thinking about getting into reloading, but I think I'm gonna wait until my 2 year-old, and my six-month old are much older. I'll just have to chalk up the cost of ammunition as protecting my kids from the dangers of lead from reloading.
DickM
Member
Interesting thread. I'm a Bullseye shooter primarily, and between competition and training I'm in an indoor range at least a few nights every week. Around here (suburban Boston) most of the ranges we shoot at have terrible ventilation. At my last physical a few weeks ago I asked my doctor to add lead to the list of analytes for my routine blood work and it came back elevated (31 mcg/dl). I'm about the third shooter on my team to get diagnosed with elevated lead and, like the others, I've started shooting with a half-face respirator and P100 filters. The first guy on the team to learn he had a problem did the same about a year ago and his lead level has come down from around 60 to around 20, so I'm optimistic it will get me back into a reasonable range. After a short adjustment period, shooting with a mask is no different than shooting with ear muffs - you pretty much forget you've got it on. We're starting to see a lot more breathing protection on the ranges around here, and with good reason.
FIOCCHI USA to offer non-toxic (lead-free) primers in Sept 2008
In a previous thread someone said that FIOCCHI make non-toxic primers, and another user said that after calling a few retailers that he could not find anyone selling them. Based on this, today I called FIOCCHI USA and asked them about the availability of non-toxic primers. Here is the skinny:
1. For 15 years FIOCCHI have made non-toxic primers for the Eurpoean market where environmental regulations are more strict than those in the US.
2. FIOCCHI USA do plan to sell non-toxic primers for large and small pistol and rifle (NOT magnum, primers) in the US beginning September 2008. This date could change based, among other things, on US State Department import approvals.
3. FIOCCHI expects these primers to show up in retail first at Graf & Sons and Midway USA.
4. FIOCCHI plan to sell . They do NOT plan to sell MAGNUM PRIMERS for either pistol or rifle.
5. FIOCCHI have not announced pricing, as price can change based on changes in the US dollar vs. Euros, etc.
6. The primers are fully non-toxic; they have not replaced lead with some other heavy metal.
7. FIOCCHI USA do not have load data yet, and do not know if the load data will vary from standard load data. However, they have been making 40 S&W, among other calibers for some time, so the data do exist. They do plan to provide load data.
8. FIOCCHI USA state that standard flash hole sizes will work.
I found the lady with whom I talked very nice, cooperative and helpful.
Here is a link to the FIOCCHI USA website:
http://www.fiocchiusa.com/Contacts.html
I want to thank those who have contributed to this thread! It is both alarming and helpful. Since I shoot frequently in USPSA and also hunt, I plan to assess the entire shoot-reload-shoot activity cycle for opportunities to reduce lead exposure to me, my family, and to others, and may post my progress here if people would find it useful.
In the short-term, I plan to move tumbling operations outside, use a mask approved by OSHA to limit lead dust (I'll research this with mask manufacturers), move reloading operations from inside the house into the garage, and wash my hands after shooting in matches and at the range where I pick up a lot of brass. While unfair, when given a choice of tasks to volunteer for at matches, I'll choose pasting targets and timing shooters over picking up brass. I'm going to add a lead blood level test to my physical exam. I'll leave my range bag in the garage, and possibly have a dedicated set of range shoes to leave in the garage.
I am still unsure of the best way to dispose of contaminated reloading materials, but will research. I do not want my yard to become a mini-EPA superfund site, nor expose other people to unreasonable risks.
This has also encouraged me to select less- or non-toxic chemicals for weapons cleaning due to the frequent exposure that comes from shooting in matches 2-3 times per month - it all adds up.
As an aside, I am quite conservative politically, and do have a background in healthcare. My hope is that by looking at each step in the shoot, recover brass, clean brass, reload, shoot cycle, I can find opportunities to dramatically reduce the amount of lead to which I expose myself and others, and validate these changes with feasible tests (periodic blood tests, surface area tests, etc.)
---------------Update on PMC primers---------------
UPDATE 20070410: Bottom line: PMC does not, and has no plans to sell non-toxic primers.
Background: Talked today with a man at PMC, which used to sell non-toxic primers that they imported from Russia. See this old and no-longer accurate press release:
http://www.bluewaterbiggame.com/new_products/pmc_non-toxic_primers_2003.cfm
PMC withdrew the primers from the market becuase there were unspecified problems with them. At this time, due to the price of component materials, and the difficulty of making money given the cost, PMC does not sell any components, and has no plans to sell any components, including non-toxic primers.
---------------Update on Magtech ---------------
Magtech offer Clean Range ammo, so I contacted them to see if they sell, or plan to sell non-toxic primers. Talked with Troy today, and he was very helpful. Magtech have a non-toxic small pistol primer, but they need to perfect the packaging that will provide the shelf life that their customers want before they can sell the primers as a component to reloaders. They have an active effort to develop this packaging, but do not have dates for completion at this time. In their loaded ammo, cost is about 8-10% higher, but they do not have pricing yet for the non-toxic small pistol primers.
Magtech website:
http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid62.php
---------------Effectiveness of using TSP to remove lead Dusts from Hard Surfaces---------------
UPDATE 20070410: On using TSP to remove lead dust: Various government agencies have stated that one can use TSP to improve the removel of lead dust. Of course, when we deprime or tumble we create lead dust.
According to a 2005 publication in a scientific journal, all-purpose household detergents can work as well as TSP. Vaccuming should be done with a HEPA vaccume first.
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2006/40/i02/abs/es050803s.html
My take: Since I can buy concentrated lead removal liquid at a reasonable price, I'll use that since it is proven effective and moderate in price. See below information on Esca-Tech products.
---------------Information on how to reduce lead contamination---------------
I did some research to answer the question for myself: What products can I use to conveniently remove lead from my hands at the range, after reloading, and dust from surfaces related to reloading, such as the reloading press, bench, floor, and brass tumbler.
As a result, I found a company that began making products for companies that use lead in their manufacturing process, such as battery companies. They were smart enough to learn of the needs of shooters, and understand shooters’ needs.
I just had a great conversation with George at Esca-Tech. Esca-Tech offer disposable and surface wipes in plastic canisters and individual use envelopes (think baby wipes for lead removal); hand/body soap, laundry soap, lead test kits for skin and surfaces, and solutions for cleaning various surfaces, such as concrete floors, wood, etc.
I asked if they had a product to pre-clean fired brass. For example, mix a solution in a 5-gallon bucket with water to reduce lead dust on fired brass before tumbling. He said that they had not tested this for effectiveness, or for effect on the strength of the brass, but that they would discuss it.
He also said they offer limited sponsorship of shooting clubs with samples of their products. E-mail them for more information.
I was impressed with their knowledge and helpfulness. I did order several of the products and will try them. I’ll use the surface test kit to test my cleaning technique of my hands and surfaces. While some of the initial quantities are a bit larger, it's like stocking up on anything else, and I'll try to share with shooting buddies, as we do with primers and powder. However, if I cannot share product orders, I'll buy it anyway. It's a no brainer to protect my brain and nervous system, and to protect my family members as well.
Here is the website where you can get product and contact information:
http://www.esca-tech.com/index.html
Here is contact information:
ESCA Tech, Inc.
3747 North Booth Street
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53212
Phone: (414) 962-5323
(877) 532-5323
Fax: (414) 962-7003
E-mail: [email protected]
Below are some product images:
Respiratory protection while habdeling tumblers and brass seperators, and possibly de-priming brass
Ideally, one would sample the concentration of the lead dust in the air while seperating tumbled brass from the media. But assuming that I'll do this outdoors, limiting duration and concentration exposure as much as possible, looks like the North Safety 7700 series half-face mask respirator and P100 HEPA filter will do the job (about $25 bucks for the whole rig, plus shipping, or visit your local inductrial safety shop to try things on for size):
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=47823&WT.svl=47823
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=13230
These masks are sized by face size, so check your size.
The filters are removable, which is nice, because they are replacable, and you can buy filters for painting, ammonia, etc.
You can determine which gloves and respirators will protect you from specific chemicals by going to the product selector at the North Safety site:
http://www.northsafety.com/
To determine what you need to protect yourself from, don't guess! Go to the manufacturer's website, for say bore cleaner, primers, etc., and download the Material Safety Data Sheet or MSDS. See section 7 and also see what chemicals the product contains.
For example, if you Google "winchester primer msds" you can quickly find this link:
http://www.winchester.com/pdf/MsdsPDF/msds_w60.pdf
While I think Winchester does not do a good job of identifying risks associated with cleaning spent brass, they do identify the chemicals in the primers. Use thin information to select a mask and/or gloves, etc.
In a previous thread someone said that FIOCCHI make non-toxic primers, and another user said that after calling a few retailers that he could not find anyone selling them. Based on this, today I called FIOCCHI USA and asked them about the availability of non-toxic primers. Here is the skinny:
1. For 15 years FIOCCHI have made non-toxic primers for the Eurpoean market where environmental regulations are more strict than those in the US.
2. FIOCCHI USA do plan to sell non-toxic primers for large and small pistol and rifle (NOT magnum, primers) in the US beginning September 2008. This date could change based, among other things, on US State Department import approvals.
3. FIOCCHI expects these primers to show up in retail first at Graf & Sons and Midway USA.
4. FIOCCHI plan to sell . They do NOT plan to sell MAGNUM PRIMERS for either pistol or rifle.
5. FIOCCHI have not announced pricing, as price can change based on changes in the US dollar vs. Euros, etc.
6. The primers are fully non-toxic; they have not replaced lead with some other heavy metal.
7. FIOCCHI USA do not have load data yet, and do not know if the load data will vary from standard load data. However, they have been making 40 S&W, among other calibers for some time, so the data do exist. They do plan to provide load data.
8. FIOCCHI USA state that standard flash hole sizes will work.
I found the lady with whom I talked very nice, cooperative and helpful.
Here is a link to the FIOCCHI USA website:
http://www.fiocchiusa.com/Contacts.html
I want to thank those who have contributed to this thread! It is both alarming and helpful. Since I shoot frequently in USPSA and also hunt, I plan to assess the entire shoot-reload-shoot activity cycle for opportunities to reduce lead exposure to me, my family, and to others, and may post my progress here if people would find it useful.
In the short-term, I plan to move tumbling operations outside, use a mask approved by OSHA to limit lead dust (I'll research this with mask manufacturers), move reloading operations from inside the house into the garage, and wash my hands after shooting in matches and at the range where I pick up a lot of brass. While unfair, when given a choice of tasks to volunteer for at matches, I'll choose pasting targets and timing shooters over picking up brass. I'm going to add a lead blood level test to my physical exam. I'll leave my range bag in the garage, and possibly have a dedicated set of range shoes to leave in the garage.
I am still unsure of the best way to dispose of contaminated reloading materials, but will research. I do not want my yard to become a mini-EPA superfund site, nor expose other people to unreasonable risks.
This has also encouraged me to select less- or non-toxic chemicals for weapons cleaning due to the frequent exposure that comes from shooting in matches 2-3 times per month - it all adds up.
As an aside, I am quite conservative politically, and do have a background in healthcare. My hope is that by looking at each step in the shoot, recover brass, clean brass, reload, shoot cycle, I can find opportunities to dramatically reduce the amount of lead to which I expose myself and others, and validate these changes with feasible tests (periodic blood tests, surface area tests, etc.)
---------------Update on PMC primers---------------
UPDATE 20070410: Bottom line: PMC does not, and has no plans to sell non-toxic primers.
Background: Talked today with a man at PMC, which used to sell non-toxic primers that they imported from Russia. See this old and no-longer accurate press release:
http://www.bluewaterbiggame.com/new_products/pmc_non-toxic_primers_2003.cfm
PMC withdrew the primers from the market becuase there were unspecified problems with them. At this time, due to the price of component materials, and the difficulty of making money given the cost, PMC does not sell any components, and has no plans to sell any components, including non-toxic primers.
---------------Update on Magtech ---------------
Magtech offer Clean Range ammo, so I contacted them to see if they sell, or plan to sell non-toxic primers. Talked with Troy today, and he was very helpful. Magtech have a non-toxic small pistol primer, but they need to perfect the packaging that will provide the shelf life that their customers want before they can sell the primers as a component to reloaders. They have an active effort to develop this packaging, but do not have dates for completion at this time. In their loaded ammo, cost is about 8-10% higher, but they do not have pricing yet for the non-toxic small pistol primers.
Magtech website:
http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid62.php
---------------Effectiveness of using TSP to remove lead Dusts from Hard Surfaces---------------
UPDATE 20070410: On using TSP to remove lead dust: Various government agencies have stated that one can use TSP to improve the removel of lead dust. Of course, when we deprime or tumble we create lead dust.
According to a 2005 publication in a scientific journal, all-purpose household detergents can work as well as TSP. Vaccuming should be done with a HEPA vaccume first.
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2006/40/i02/abs/es050803s.html
My take: Since I can buy concentrated lead removal liquid at a reasonable price, I'll use that since it is proven effective and moderate in price. See below information on Esca-Tech products.
---------------Information on how to reduce lead contamination---------------
I did some research to answer the question for myself: What products can I use to conveniently remove lead from my hands at the range, after reloading, and dust from surfaces related to reloading, such as the reloading press, bench, floor, and brass tumbler.
As a result, I found a company that began making products for companies that use lead in their manufacturing process, such as battery companies. They were smart enough to learn of the needs of shooters, and understand shooters’ needs.
I just had a great conversation with George at Esca-Tech. Esca-Tech offer disposable and surface wipes in plastic canisters and individual use envelopes (think baby wipes for lead removal); hand/body soap, laundry soap, lead test kits for skin and surfaces, and solutions for cleaning various surfaces, such as concrete floors, wood, etc.
I asked if they had a product to pre-clean fired brass. For example, mix a solution in a 5-gallon bucket with water to reduce lead dust on fired brass before tumbling. He said that they had not tested this for effectiveness, or for effect on the strength of the brass, but that they would discuss it.
He also said they offer limited sponsorship of shooting clubs with samples of their products. E-mail them for more information.
I was impressed with their knowledge and helpfulness. I did order several of the products and will try them. I’ll use the surface test kit to test my cleaning technique of my hands and surfaces. While some of the initial quantities are a bit larger, it's like stocking up on anything else, and I'll try to share with shooting buddies, as we do with primers and powder. However, if I cannot share product orders, I'll buy it anyway. It's a no brainer to protect my brain and nervous system, and to protect my family members as well.
Here is the website where you can get product and contact information:
http://www.esca-tech.com/index.html
Here is contact information:
ESCA Tech, Inc.
3747 North Booth Street
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53212
Phone: (414) 962-5323
(877) 532-5323
Fax: (414) 962-7003
E-mail: [email protected]
Below are some product images:
Respiratory protection while habdeling tumblers and brass seperators, and possibly de-priming brass
Ideally, one would sample the concentration of the lead dust in the air while seperating tumbled brass from the media. But assuming that I'll do this outdoors, limiting duration and concentration exposure as much as possible, looks like the North Safety 7700 series half-face mask respirator and P100 HEPA filter will do the job (about $25 bucks for the whole rig, plus shipping, or visit your local inductrial safety shop to try things on for size):
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=47823&WT.svl=47823
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=13230
These masks are sized by face size, so check your size.
The filters are removable, which is nice, because they are replacable, and you can buy filters for painting, ammonia, etc.
You can determine which gloves and respirators will protect you from specific chemicals by going to the product selector at the North Safety site:
http://www.northsafety.com/
To determine what you need to protect yourself from, don't guess! Go to the manufacturer's website, for say bore cleaner, primers, etc., and download the Material Safety Data Sheet or MSDS. See section 7 and also see what chemicals the product contains.
For example, if you Google "winchester primer msds" you can quickly find this link:
http://www.winchester.com/pdf/MsdsPDF/msds_w60.pdf
While I think Winchester does not do a good job of identifying risks associated with cleaning spent brass, they do identify the chemicals in the primers. Use thin information to select a mask and/or gloves, etc.
Attachments
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okeybug
Member
I had my blood tested for lead poisoning the other day
I've been using lynotype and ww lead to pour bullets for years now. I've cast many thousands over the years. I'm a science teacher and I have known about the dangers of lead for some time. The other day I went in for my blood work, part of my annual physical, and I decided to have my lead levels checked.
I have never had a lead test done and my doctor thought it was a good idea. Come to fine out my lead levels were very low. .4 out of a scale of 0 - 24. I feel people are over reacting to the lead thing. If you use a good fan to blow away any vapors while fluxing and use one of the modern fluxs like Mervolux from Brownells, and of course, wash your hands before ingesting anything, you'll be fine. Lead poisoning cannot be gotten through the skin.
It has to be ingested by breathing the vapors from fluxing or by
eating, smoking with lead on the hands.
I've been using lynotype and ww lead to pour bullets for years now. I've cast many thousands over the years. I'm a science teacher and I have known about the dangers of lead for some time. The other day I went in for my blood work, part of my annual physical, and I decided to have my lead levels checked.
I have never had a lead test done and my doctor thought it was a good idea. Come to fine out my lead levels were very low. .4 out of a scale of 0 - 24. I feel people are over reacting to the lead thing. If you use a good fan to blow away any vapors while fluxing and use one of the modern fluxs like Mervolux from Brownells, and of course, wash your hands before ingesting anything, you'll be fine. Lead poisoning cannot be gotten through the skin.
It has to be ingested by breathing the vapors from fluxing or by
eating, smoking with lead on the hands.
Just got my lead test results back and the level is 4. Not sure if okeybug meant 0.4 or 4.0. I asked the doc to give me a paper copy so I can read it for myself.
Most of my exposure comes from firing while moving (inhalation) at the range, from picking up brass, and from reloading (tumbling brass, depriming, etc.).
Reflecting on whether or not I am "over-reacting" here are my thoughts for myself:
1. The cost of the D-Lead disposable wipes is pretty low, ($4.50/40 even when buying small quantities at Brownells), and I like using these at the range at matches between stages.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=21601
Other people seem to like using them as well. Wiping lead off my hands is easy and cheap, so I'll do it.
2. Tumbling outside in the yard vs in the garage or house is easy and simple. An extension cord is all that's involved.
3. Using a HEPA respirator to separate brass from tumbling media is a $25 expense that lasts for years, and I use the respirator with other filters for other things, like painting, so this is easy, cheap and simple.
4. Wiping down my reloading bench and press with D-Lead wipes is also easy, simple and cheap. Wearing disposable gloves is also easy and cheap.
5. I have an RCBS Lock-N-Load progressive press that drops ejected primers into a plastic tube. I put the end of this tube into an old Cool-Whip bowl with water in it to limit dust. Pretty simple.
Also, the only way that I can measure the effects of my exposure is the blood test and occasional surface tests. Only after getting the results am I able to determine if my control measures are effective or not.
So, I am happy with the measures I have implemented; I find them simple, easy, and cheap. My nervous system and kidneys, etc. are worth it to me, and I still have many years of shooting ahead (God willing)!
Most of my exposure comes from firing while moving (inhalation) at the range, from picking up brass, and from reloading (tumbling brass, depriming, etc.).
Reflecting on whether or not I am "over-reacting" here are my thoughts for myself:
1. The cost of the D-Lead disposable wipes is pretty low, ($4.50/40 even when buying small quantities at Brownells), and I like using these at the range at matches between stages.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=21601
Other people seem to like using them as well. Wiping lead off my hands is easy and cheap, so I'll do it.
2. Tumbling outside in the yard vs in the garage or house is easy and simple. An extension cord is all that's involved.
3. Using a HEPA respirator to separate brass from tumbling media is a $25 expense that lasts for years, and I use the respirator with other filters for other things, like painting, so this is easy, cheap and simple.
4. Wiping down my reloading bench and press with D-Lead wipes is also easy, simple and cheap. Wearing disposable gloves is also easy and cheap.
5. I have an RCBS Lock-N-Load progressive press that drops ejected primers into a plastic tube. I put the end of this tube into an old Cool-Whip bowl with water in it to limit dust. Pretty simple.
Also, the only way that I can measure the effects of my exposure is the blood test and occasional surface tests. Only after getting the results am I able to determine if my control measures are effective or not.
So, I am happy with the measures I have implemented; I find them simple, easy, and cheap. My nervous system and kidneys, etc. are worth it to me, and I still have many years of shooting ahead (God willing)!
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okeybug
Member
no my test results was .4, which is just a trace. If you just use a little common sense and wash after pouring and use a fan as I do in the garage, I think you're gonna be allright.
TEDDY
Member
Lead
I am 84 today have loaded and cast since 1939.had lead checked yrs ago when the big push was on,docs dont seem to know any thing about lead.if you want the skinny get the NRA they have done extensive research.most of it has to do with children eating paint off the house trim.zinc tablets amalgam with lead and leach out.iron tablets displace where lead stores.dont smoke drink or eat without washing hands.
actually you should not cast as you take ww away from me.
its like lead in ground will contaminate water.actually the lead gets a corrosion on it that wont leach.NRA tests.
stop getting you info from posters as they dont know and the docs post says he does not know.I have done some prelim search and been checked so I dont bother any more.
I am 84 today have loaded and cast since 1939.had lead checked yrs ago when the big push was on,docs dont seem to know any thing about lead.if you want the skinny get the NRA they have done extensive research.most of it has to do with children eating paint off the house trim.zinc tablets amalgam with lead and leach out.iron tablets displace where lead stores.dont smoke drink or eat without washing hands.
actually you should not cast as you take ww away from me.
its like lead in ground will contaminate water.actually the lead gets a corrosion on it that wont leach.NRA tests.
stop getting you info from posters as they dont know and the docs post says he does not know.I have done some prelim search and been checked so I dont bother any more.
You are responsible for your health
What is becoming clear to me is that each of us is responsible for understanding and mitigating risks, and using a blood lead test to determine the effectiveness of your control measures.
It is interesting that one person says "it will be allright" when he seems to take less precautions that I, yet my blood level is 10x his level. There are many material variables: frequency of shooting, and probably a hundred others as well. Should I take the advice of someone who does not know how much I shoot? I shot about 800 rounds last week alone, and handled every piece of brass three times.
As to not considering information from other posters, I disagree. I have learned much from reading others' posts. I have also done my own homework. In addition, I was a nurse for 10 years, have over 10 years' of college, including a science master's degree (4.0 GPA), and so I feel that I can determine the credibility of sources and do my own research, and properly apply it. Other people on this forum are better educated than am I.
The bottom line, in my mind, is this: Understand the risks of shooting and reloading, take reasonable precautions to mitigate your risks, and assess the effectiveness of you control measures with a baseline and follow-up blood level tests, and repeat them at an appropriate frequency.
You are responsible for your health; don't let other people play their home movies into your life.
What is becoming clear to me is that each of us is responsible for understanding and mitigating risks, and using a blood lead test to determine the effectiveness of your control measures.
It is interesting that one person says "it will be allright" when he seems to take less precautions that I, yet my blood level is 10x his level. There are many material variables: frequency of shooting, and probably a hundred others as well. Should I take the advice of someone who does not know how much I shoot? I shot about 800 rounds last week alone, and handled every piece of brass three times.
As to not considering information from other posters, I disagree. I have learned much from reading others' posts. I have also done my own homework. In addition, I was a nurse for 10 years, have over 10 years' of college, including a science master's degree (4.0 GPA), and so I feel that I can determine the credibility of sources and do my own research, and properly apply it. Other people on this forum are better educated than am I.
The bottom line, in my mind, is this: Understand the risks of shooting and reloading, take reasonable precautions to mitigate your risks, and assess the effectiveness of you control measures with a baseline and follow-up blood level tests, and repeat them at an appropriate frequency.
You are responsible for your health; don't let other people play their home movies into your life.
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A good thread; what I visit shooting forums to read. I agree with "okeybug," however. There are reasonable precautions, stemming from understanding, and then there are precautions which guard against nonexistent threats. I both shoot and reload, and have reloaded for 40 years. For 20 of those years, I cast bullets, quitting about 15 years ago for a variety of reasons. I have never had any reason to have my blood tested. All the activities connected with reloading have always been apart from the living area of the house, and I take suitable precautions to ensure that there is no contamination carried in there. What I do has worked for me for quite a few years, and I don't plan to change. Am I going to start wearing a respirator? No. If I believed that my reloading activities required a respirator, I'd quit tomorrow.
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