Legality of buying/selling braced firearms

[HarryB]

Curious. I’m looking through for sale ads and I see braced pistols for sale.

Would a transaction with the braces attached/included/nearby be a big illegal mess right now?

I’m not in the market, but although it might be a setup as well.

Thoughts?

 

[GaryNC]

Curious. I’m looking through for sale ads and I see braced pistols for sale.

Would a transaction with the braces attached/included/nearby be a big illegal mess right now?

I’m not in the market, but although it might be a setup as well.

Thoughts?

I would NOT buy a braced pistol right now. IF I wanted an SBR, I would be willing to buy an SBR on an eForm 4.

I have a very LOW tolerance for risk.

 

[dogtown tom]

Curious. I’m looking through for sale ads and I see braced pistols for sale.

You are likely looking at felonies. Can you give a link?

Would a transaction with the braces attached/included/nearby be a big illegal mess right now?

Yup

I’m not in the market, but although it might be a setup as well.

ATF isn't going to need to do a sting/setup/entrap.......gun owners are perfectly capable of doing it all by themselves.

As of 1/31/2023, a pistol with an "arm brace" is considered a Short Barreled Rifle by ATF. A forbearance period gave owners until 5/31/2023 to file a tax free Form 1.
Owners of pistols with arm braces can lawfully possess that firearm IF they filed that Form 1. They also had the option to remove the arm brace.

 

[P Flados]

I would be surprised to see many adds for complete braced pistols from any FFL holding organization.

I did note that PSA is still selling "pistol kits" with braces. When you click to see the product details, they really should have a big red warning that assembling a braced gun with a pistol length barrel is now considered a SBR requiring a NFA stamp. Instead they just have the old text including:

"A high quality lower build kit with everything you need to assemble your AR-15 lower into a pistol."
​

Sometimes I think we (the pro-gunners) can be our own worst enemies.

 

[RWBlue01]

As I understand it, we are currently in a grey area. There is a legal hold on doing anything until the courts sort out the issue.

 

[dogtown tom]

...I did note that PSA is still selling "pistol kits" with braces. When you click to see the product details, they really should have a big red warning that assembling a braced gun with a pistol length barrel is now considered a SBR requiring a NFA stamp....

PSA does have: Customers must read Compliance Information before purchasing. That includes this:

It is the customer's responsibility to be aware of all applicable laws and regulations regarding the purchase and ownership of uppers with a barrel length of less than 16". Federal NFA regulations are applicable to this item

IMO.....that isn't enough. Being that these aren't "pistol kits", but SBR kits, I think PSA could do a much better job on explaining why buying and assembling this kit without an approved Form 1 is a felony.

 

[Sistema1927]

As I understand it, we are currently in a grey area. There is a legal hold on doing anything until the courts sort out the issue.

On what are you basing this? Can you point to even a single action by any court that puts a nationwide, no exceptions, "legal hold" on ATF enforcement action?

What is truly scary is that a large percentage of gun owners don't have a clue. For example, last month, I was at the range and a buddy showed me his latest acquisition. A braced pistol, that he then shouldered and exclaimed that he had all the functionality of an SBR without needing a tax stamp. My attempt to inform him of the ATF ruling and end of amnesty period on May 31st fell on deaf ears. Why? Because he was under the impression that if he could buy it in that configuration, he was totally safe.

 

[HarryB]

You are likely looking at felonies. Can you give a link?

this for example https://www.armslist.com/posts/1449...for-sale-trade--brace-built-mc6-300blk-pistol

 

[DoubleMag]

Uneducated guess, it's not illegal if you're in a protected group or state due to recent court challenges...however....


who want to be the test case?

 

[RWBlue01]

So join a group. FPC and GOA

 

[kwb377]

I would be surprised to see many adds for complete braced pistols from any FFL holding organization.

I wouldn't be...there are several local gun and pawn shops still listing braced pistols on Armslist. One has even started to "Vignette" the photos so the brace is shadowed out at the edge of the photo, which tells me they know exactly that they shouldn't be doing it.

I think the Rule/Law is stupid and unconstitutional, and I think a private owner might be able to get away with the "I had no idea it changed" routine with just a confiscation of the weapon and no prosecution...but an FFL trying to pull it in such a public manner is just stupid and asking to be made an example.

 

[jmorris]

…I think a private owner might be able to get away with the "I had no idea it changed" routine with just a confiscation of the weapon and no prosecution…

I wouldn’t count on that even if I were Paul Pelosi.

 

[CapnMac]

Part of the complication here, too, is that this is not exclusively about AR pistols, to where an "upper swap" can "cure" the firearm. There are plenty of items, like Dracos, the various MP-5 clone pistols, and many of those ilk--so, radical changes may be wanted.

Or, various owners may think the new rule only applies to AR pistols, and not their prized shooter.

 

[kwb377]

I wouldn’t count on that even if I were Paul Pelosi.

I didn't...I went ahead and SBR'd two of mine. I had intended to do that anyway eventually...I'm actually surprised it took the ATF this long to pull the plug on braces.

 

[N555]

Just sell it as a pistol.

Or even better see if that person has an AR rifle, trade barrels and sell them a rifle with pistol brace.

 

[bearcreek]

I would be surprised to see many adds for complete braced pistols from any FFL holding organization.

I wouldn't. I've heard all kinds of incorrect legal information and advice from FFL's. IMO, the average "veteran" member of this forum is better informed on Federal gun law than the average FFL.

 

[12Bravo20]

Not all FFL holders keep up on the different rule changes. One local FFL that also manufactures and deals in NFA items along with manufacturing ammo didn't even know much about the 80% or brace rule changes. We have the benefit of having knowledgable FFL holders on this forum that do keep up with the changes.

 

[21H40]

Removing the brace before selling it makes it legal though, right? Seems like such a little thing to go from felony to fine.

 

[12Bravo20]

Removing the brace before selling it makes it legal though, right? Seems like such a little thing to go from felony to fine.

Yes it is as simple as that. One of the choices to make your braced pistols compliant with the new rule is to remove the brace and then make the brace so that it can't be reinstalled.

Here is a screen shot from the factoring criteria document.

 

[Jeff H]

IMO.....that isn't enough. Being that these aren't "pistol kits", but SBR kits, I think PSA could do a much better job on explaining why buying and assembling this kit without an approved Form 1 is a felony.

Just thinking out loud here. With the injunctions in place, the ownership of a braced pistol is not (yet) an SBR for people belonging to certain organizations.

Does that extend to buying and selling as well as ownership? In my mind, I think it would, since a braced pistol is not an SBR under the injunction if you qualify.

Take it one step further: if PSA is a member of the exempt groups, are they allowed to sell???

 

[dogtown tom]

Just thinking out loud here. With the injunctions in place, the ownership of a braced pistol is not (yet) an SBR for people belonging to certain organizations.

Does that extend to buying and selling as well as ownership? In my mind, I think it would, since a braced pistol is not an SBR under the injunction if you qualify.

Take it one step further: if PSA is a member of the exempt groups, are they allowed to sell???

Go ahead. You take that first step.
It's a minefield and you better be aware of what may happen.

The injunctions only apply to certain people, and only to those in the jurisdiction of the court that issued the injunction. As SCOTUS has not ruled on the legality of pistols with an arm brace, it's my opinion that one should be very, very careful. One false step could mean never owning any gun, ever again.

As far as "members of certain groups"? I would be damned sure that I knew exactly what the court meant. Did he include only those who were member of the group at the time of filing? At the time he issued his decision? Or any future member of the group? If you don't know, you better know.

Remember, an injunction doesn't eliminate the problem, it just delays implementation until the court can hear the case. It could be lifted tomorrow.....and then where will you be?

 

[gopguy]

this for example https://www.armslist.com/posts/1449...for-sale-trade--brace-built-mc6-300blk-pistol
View attachment 1155962

He is setting himself up for trouble. An ATF agent posing as a buyer might arrange to meet him and arrest him for selling a SBR. He would lose all his guns. I see people in my area selling them too... either very dumb or seriously ignorant of the situation. Or on the more cynical side it frankly it could be ATF setting someone up to buy a unregistered SBR. We live in those interesting times mentioned in a Chinese curse.

 

[kwb377]

I would be surprised to see many adds for complete braced pistols from any FFL holding organization.

ARMSLIST - Redstone Pawn

This is the dealer I was referencing above...they have nine braced pistols listed now on AL. Notice the "shadowing" on the edges of the pics to obscure the braces...




There are people who have never heard of the Brace ruling that will purchase these and instantly (and unknowingly) become a felon as soon as they take possession (before they even walk out the door). I'm not naive enough to think that there are thousands (more likely millions) of owners that have knowingly left their braces on their pistols, and that still conduct private sale transactions with them...but a dealer blatantly selling them in such a public fashion is just asking for enforcement attention.

 

[dogtown tom]

ARMSLIST - Redstone Pawn

This is the dealer I was referencing above...they have nine braced pistols listed now on AL. Notice the "shadowing" on the edges of the pics to obscure the braces...

..... a dealer blatantly selling them in such a public fashion is just asking for enforcement attention.

As will any dealer accepting those braced pistols into his inventory without a Form 3 or Form 4.

 

[Styx]

There are probably hundreds of thousands of people who know nothing about the pistol brace rule change. They puchused theirs legal, aren't immersed in gun culture like we are, so they aren't keeping up to date on news regarding firearms. I know several casual gun owners who couldn't even tell me the model and, in some cases, even the manufacturer of the handgun they own when I inquired. They only know the caliber. I expect everyone to know the rule.