Let's Make a Deal-NFA and UBC's

Would you support removing items from the NFA in exchange for UBC's?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 8.2%
  • No

    Votes: 158 86.8%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 9 4.9%

  • Total voters
    182
  • Poll closed .
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I voted no, even though I am in NYS where ALL firearms are subject to a background check and NFA items are not allowed (except I believe AOW).

The anti-2A crowd is not to be trusted whatsoever. Whatever they cannot ban today will be tomorrow's loophole, and to them 'compromise' is that they figuratively only push the blade halfway into your back for now, then return later to push it in a bit further.
 
17-18? That high? I really haven't kept up with the numbers, so I went out on the internet and looked for some numbers. According to the CSGV, 11 states require them: CA, CO, CT, DE, DC (not a state, I know), MD (handguns), NY, OR, PA (handguns), RI and WA.

Source: http://smartgunlaws.org/universal-gun-background-checks-policy-summary/ -- Footnote 1.
I was off on the 17-18 figure. I was including Nebraska, North Carolina, and Iowa, which require that a person posses a certificate or permit to buy a handgun and thus, has gone through a background check.

So, that goes down to 14 states, and the District of chickens, that require some form of UBC, some which only apply to handguns.
 
originally posted by Bobson:

"...Not all of America enjoys the same level of freedom"

ALL gun laws should be federal so this complaint goes away, and until someone (Chuckie Schumer, Mike Bloomberg, Sarah Brady - anyone) can show me where the Second Amendment includes after '...shall not be infringed' the codicil "except for reasonable and common-sense regulations" ALL gun laws should be struck own as unconstitutional. No ifs, ands or buts, and no compromise! If you don't like it, amend the Constitution. It has been done before, and until you do it again, my hard-core Constitution trumps your panty-waisted "commonsense and reasonable"
 
There is an alternative to registration for UBCs, and that would be a Federal or State issued Firearms Owner's Identification Card.
Firearm ID Cards have not fared well for gun owners.

New Jersey has had their Firearms ID Card Scheme since 1966 and it resulted in less people owning guns in that state. The process to get the card is onerous and highly invasive as well as expensive as it costs $65 - $80 and takes anywhere 4 to 24 weeks to obtain one.

It requires two or three or more character references (including one from your employer) and requires fingerprinting and extensive, unnecessary redundant background checks. It did NOT eliminate the State NICS, that is another $15 fee on top of it each time.

Once they have a "PERMIT TO BUY GUNS" what is to stop the State or the Feds from creating a database from that card?
.
 
...unless you actually want to ENFORCE them.

Without REGISTRATION, they're as UTTERLY meaningless as a state religion and mandatory church attendance without a headcount.
There's a lot of laws we don't enforce. The UBC is a feel good measure, and we all know how the Left likes to FEEL... GOOD... MAN...
 
If it means the DMV puts a G-for-guns on your license when you turn 18 (which is removed if convicted, ...), and you have to check for that prior to a sale, no problem.
Have no fear, those pushing for REGISTRATION would never go for that, since it would "stigmatize" convicted felons and other prohibited persons.
 
originally posted by Bobson:

"...Not all of America enjoys the same level of freedom"

ALL gun laws should be federal so this complaint goes away, and until someone (Chuckie Schumer, Mike Bloomberg, Sarah Brady - anyone) can show me where the Second Amendment includes after '...shall not be infringed' the codicil "except for reasonable and common-sense regulations" ALL gun laws should be struck own as unconstitutional. No ifs, ands or buts, and no compromise! If you don't like it, amend the Constitution. It has been done before, and until you do it again, my hard-core Constitution trumps your panty-waisted "commonsense and reasonable"
Unfortunately, there's a long, detailed sentence at the beginning of the Constitution that has been blown so far out of context and central to the progressives for over a century now.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

So, does "promote the general Welfare" trump "shall not be infringed?"
 
There's a lot of laws we don't enforce. The UBC is a feel good measure, and we all know how the Left likes to FEEL... GOOD... MAN...
Before about 1943, the bombing of Germany was a "feel good measure" for the Allies.

Unfortunately for the Germans, it was the base upon which the razing of Germany's cities was laid.

"Universal background checks" are the base upon which the anti-gun cult and their fellow travelers among "gun owners" hope to lay eventual bans and confiscation.
 
Before about 1943, the bombing of Germany was a "feel good measure" for the Allies.

Unfortunately for the Germans, it was the base upon which the razing of Germany's cities was laid.

"Universal background checks" are the base upon which the anti-gun cult and their fellow travelers among "gun owners" hope to lay eventual bans and confiscation.
But President Obama said, "No one is coming to take your guns."

Are you implying that he wasn't being honest?
 
So, does "promote the general Welfare" trump "shall not be infringed?"

an attack on the 2A is an attack of "the general welfare".....there is only one reason to restrict the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, and that reason, as we have seen throughout history, is to harm the people.

nothing trump, "shall not be infringed".......because if it did......they wouldnt have added "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
 
an attack on the 2A is an attack of "the general welfare".....there is only one reason to restrict the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, and that reason, as we have seen throughout history, is to harm the people.
I agree 100%. I think increasing gun ownership does more to promote the general Welfare than UBC's, hi cap magazine bans, semi-auto bans, and whatever else the pot smoking, Che Guevara shirt wearing, public transportation riding, SOB's can think of.
 
I'm the only yes. There, I said it.

Heck, in my state, we already have UBCs. Not all of America enjoys the same level of freedom, folks.

I think nationwide UBCs are coming anyway, and I don't see how registration has anything to do with them (though most others seem to, so maybe I'm missing something). May as well get something in return. Frankly, I don't trust the politicians to follow through either, but this isn't a realistic thread, so what difference does it make? Yes, in this mythical world where items might be pealed off the NFA, and where politicians could be trusted, I would be willing to give up something for it. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in.


So because you already have UBC you are willing to throw the gun owners in other states under the bus to get something for you?

Well, with friends like you…
 
Just say NO to "Let's Make a Deal", especially if it has anything to do with politicians and Washington D.C.
 
oh, so if it doesnt effect you what do you care about the rest of the country, eh?...


you are the worst kind of gun owner.
...ow. That's just hurtful, man. :( Brb while I cry myself to sleep.

...

You missed my point. If you can hit pause on reveling in superiority for a moment:

I wasn't saying that since we already lost that fight in my state, the rest of the country should be forced to suffer along with me. My point was that several states (11, apparently) already have UBCs, and they're an everyday topic among our opponents, and a direct goal.

This is a fantasy thread. Our opponents aren't going to offer anything in exchange for UBCs, they'll just keep introducing them state-by-state until the next logical step is to make it a federal law. The few states truly committed to freedom won't matter in the long run.
 
So because you already have UBC you are willing to throw the gun owners in other states under the bus to get something for you?

Well, with friends like you…
Is reading comprehension seriously this poor among Americans? I mean, it's either that, or you genuinely believe you can read one sentence and extract the entire point of a two paragraph post.
 
...ow. That's just hurtful, man. :( Brb while I cry myself to sleep.

...

You missed my point. If you can hit pause on reveling in superiority for a moment:

I wasn't saying that since we already lost that fight in my state, the rest of the country should be forced to suffer along with me. My point was that several states (11, apparently) already have UBCs, and they're an everyday topic among our opponents, and a direct goal.

This is a fantasy thread. Our opponents aren't going to offer anything in exchange for UBCs, they'll just keep introducing them state-by-state until the next logical step is to make it a federal law. The few states truly committed to freedom won't matter in the long run.

oh, well if youve already given up on fighting unconstitutional laws, then by all means, lets drag down the rest of the country......

you are already admitting defeat before even stepping foot in the ring.......why dont you try sending $20 to the NRA instead of wallowing in your tears.
 
What I do not get is how in this modern day and age, we cannot simply have some sort of database in which when someone goes to buy a gun, all that is needed is a fingerprint scan or driver's license number, SSN, or some other means by which, the gun shop, ATF, or whoever is the authority for handing the item over or giving approval could simply enter and get confirmation or denial.

I think it is incredibly stupid that we have to wait months and months to get NFA items. It should be as simple as the ATF running my SSN and seeing no criminal record and giving approval. It should literally take 10 seconds. We have drones and vehicles that have traveled to Mars and it should be easy to have a go/no-go gun buying database. Why I have to fill out forms every time I go into the gun shop or buy an NFA item instead of it being automatic is beyond me.

A background check should not be a time-intensive procedure. It is not like I am applying for a job dealing with our nation's secrets and my neighbors and employers are being interviewed. It should be a simple lookup and deeming me Approved or Denied. Enter my SSN and it will say "Approved" because I do not have any criminal record and I can walk out of the store with a gun, machinegun, suppressor, SBR, SBS, etc. Enter a bad guy who has a criminal record and it should say "Denied" and he should be told sorry. I think the government uses "background checks" as an excuse to prolong the receipt of gun items.

The fact that the government treats machineguns, suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, etc like they are some sort of kryptonite more dangerous than any other firearm and needing a tax stamp and a prolonged wait time is absurd. Again, a machinegun has never killed anyone. Never. A person can kill or use an object to kill but an inanimate object without any human influence cannot kill.
 
UBC and NFA should stand or fall on their own merits and not be traded one way or the other. [snark]Would I accept UBC for relaxed auto emission standards on my old truck?[/snark] They are all seperate issues.

No trade.

The constitution of my state declares in Article I (rights of the citizen), Section 26, that the citizens have the right to keep and bear arms but the legislature reserves the power to regulate with a view to prevent crime.

According to court rulings, state attorney general opinions and statements of legislative intent, the test of a gun law is two-fold:
1. Will it unduly infringe on lawful, traditional use by the lawabiding?
2. Will it actually prevent crime, impact bad behavior by bad people?

This is the legislative regimen I grew up under in regards to firearms.

The "40%" claim used to support a call for Universal Background Checks comes from the NSPOF National Survey on Private Ownership and use of Firearms conducted in 1994 under the Clinton Administration.

NSPOF came up with 251 (two hundred fifty one) private citizens (of a total sample of "2,568 noninstitutionalized adults aged 18 and over ... and live in households with a telephone") who bought guns in the previous three years 1991-1993.
60% from licensed dealers
19% gifts from family or relatives
5% inheritances
13% purchase (used) from private parties
3% swap/trade of guns among private parties.

40% of gun transactions NOT through licensed dealers in a small random selection of ordinary citizens. This the "40% from unlicensed dealers" stat used by the Obama Administration to push UBC. [lol]When mom and dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 15th birthday, they were acting as unlicensed dealers.[/lol]

As long as the recipient of the gun is not a known felon, is not expressing felonious intent, and the gun is legally owned by the source, gift from family or friend, inheritance, second hand purchase or swap is traditional and lawful transfer.

Looking more recently at Bureau of Justice prison inmate surveys of Firearms Using Offenders.*
Code:
Sources of Firearms for State Inmates 
possessing a firearm 
                      1997     1991 
Retail Sources
  Retail store         8.3     14.7
  Pawnshop             3.8      4.2
  Flea market          1.0      1.3
  Gun show             0.7      0.6
Total Retail Purchase 13.9%    20.8%

Friends or family**
  Purchase or trade   12.8     13.5
  Rent or borrow      18.5     10.1
  Other                8.3     10.2 
Total Friends/family  39.6     33.8

Street/illegal source
  Drug dealer/
    street sales      20.8     22.5
  Theft or burglary    9.9     10.5
  Fence/black market   8.4      7.8 
Total Street/illegal  39.2     40.8

The UBC is based on survey data from the National Survey on Private Ownership and use of Firearms of 251 noninstitutionalized adults living in households with telephones.

The UBC is not based on survey data from Bureau of Justice Statistics from interviews of thousands of state and federal institutionalized Firearms Using Offenders.

Mull that a bit.


Back to the Tennessee Test for acceptable regulation:
1. Will it unduly infringe lawful, traditional use by the lawabiding?
2. Will it actually prevent crime, impacting bad behavior by bad people?

Private background check in Tennessee costs $29 going through the state, $30 going through a licensed gun dealer (FFL holder). The state check is state records; the check through an FFL includes state and federal records.

Will UBC affect the 40% of non-dealer firearms transfers (19% private gifts, 5% inheritances, 13% privates sales and 3% swaps)? $29 or $30? You bet.

[snark]Would people who can afford $200 Form 4 transfers trade that for a $29-$30 UBC on all private gun transfers? Sure. But what about those of us who cannot afford a $200 ATF tax stamp? Those of us for whom $30 surcharge would be a deal killer?[/snark]

Will it prevent crime? Donning my Karnack turban, I predict: No. Just as the 1953-1968 "dry law" local option prohibition promoted bootlegging here in Sullivan County and made alcohol abuse worse, it would not prevent crime, but cause new crime. As Edgar Allan Poe pointed out in reponse to an 1844 moral crusade: "Your reformist demi-gods are just devils turned inside out."

So should we accept UBC which will dampen traditional, lawful private transfer among the lawabiding, costing millions with little promise of impacting criminals, in exchange for loosening NFA restrictions? Ha. Look what the anti-gunners did with the Hughes Amendment. Never forget Hughes. It is unlikely the anti-gunners will loosen NFA restrictions no matter what we give up. They'll dangle a carrot, but once we take the step, they're more likely to snatch it away and feel justified in deceiving us.

(To open another can of worms: ideally SBR, SBS, AOW should be lumped with handguns as "concealable weapons" and buying one from a dealer should be legally treated like buying a pistol or revolver, with making one requiring the same extra scrutiny deemed necessary for a handgun purchase. BUT not part of a useless trade.)

__________________________________
* Caroline Wolf Harlow, Ph.D., BJS Statistician, "Firearm Use by Offenders: Survey of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities", U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, November 2001, Revised 2/04/02, NCJ 189369. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

** "Friends or family" in the 1986 felon survey (Wright & Rossi, "Armed and Considered Dangerous") included criminal aquaintances of the felon. Family of felons are often involved in crime themselves. Retail purchase included a family member or friend making a straw man buy on behalf of the felon. So "friends and family" in the BJS survey probably includes felonious transfers under existing law.
 
What did we give up in order to get the anti-gun politicians to drop their useless "ballistic fingerprint databases" in New York and Maryland?

Nada.

Bad law eventually fell because it was expensive and useless.
 
There is no need for universal background checks because it will not change violent crime. The main problem I have with the whole UBC is that most proposals say that purchases and sales are done through a dealer, which will basically set up a de facto gun registry. Rarely is there a proposal that instead of individual sales going through a dealer that people can call and check backgrounds or use concealed handgun licenses to verify eligibility.
 
The solution against state by state adoption of UBC's is to get rid of ballot initiatives.

This way they want to make a law, they will have to go through conventional means. Through proposals, through committees, through the legislature of both houses and thus hold politicians accountable.

What states have ballot initiatives and what states do not?

https://ballotpedia.org/States_lacking_initiative_or_referendum
.
 
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It shouldnt be much of a surprise that these ideas are coming from people in the restricted states when the majority of the time here, the people in the less restricted states repeatedly make comments of CA NY etc being to far gone ... they got what they deserve...and they have written them off.

IOW, when many in our shooting community here have come out and said they dont care about shoters in CA NY etc, the cooresponding lack of consideration shouldn't come as a surprise.


It's not right.... but it's not surprising either.
 
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