Let's Make a Deal-NFA and UBC's

Would you support removing items from the NFA in exchange for UBC's?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 8.2%
  • No

    Votes: 158 86.8%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 9 4.9%

  • Total voters
    182
  • Poll closed .
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Deanimator;
"So, does "promote the general Welfare" trump "shall not be infringed?"
The answer is obviously no.

"Promote the general Welfare" is found in the original Constitution. While "shall not be infringed" is found in the Second Amendment. An Amendment amends or CHANGES what went before. If there is a conflict between an Amendment and an earlier clause, the Amendment rules.

And the 10th Amendment clearly wipes out any pretense that the "General Welfare" clause authorizes anything Congress wants.
 
The answer is obviously no.

"Promote the general Welfare" is found in the original Constitution. While "shall not be infringed" is found in the Second Amendment. An Amendment amends or CHANGES what went before. If there is a conflict between an Amendment and an earlier clause, the Amendment rules.

And the 10th Amendment clearly wipes out any pretense that the "General Welfare" clause authorizes anything Congress wants.
Not actually MY words (I believe I quoted somebody else.), but an accurate analysis nonetheless.
 
Is it true that the FBI has announced they will no long process appeals of gun sale denials from the NICS BG check system?

I know two guys who caught grief from NICS BG checks -- one listed as a suspect in a robbery in a hotel where he worked (cleared by further investigation), one arrested at a routine traffic stop for having the same name as a wanted federal fugitive (cleared by FBI as mistaken identity) -- who could not get the listed-as-suspect or arrested-as-fugitive off their BG record. The mistaken identity guy routinely filled appeals of denial, and was approved after filing copies of his court disposition.
 
This is often repeated but it's not true. We have universal checks for alcohol sales but we enforce them through undercover stings, not alcohol bottle registries.

If we were trading something for UBCs, I would rather get 50-state reciprocity for CHLs than repeal of NFA restrictions. I don't have much use for an SBR or SBS, but I'm less than 30 miles from the California border, and the minute I cross, my driver's license keeps working but my CHL does not.

We recently imposed UBCs here in Oregon and the sky didn't fall, and no, there's no registry of firearms or firearms owners.

That's a false comparison on two levels. First, it isn't a "universal check" on alcohol. It's a one-time check at initial purchase from a "dealer". After that (in most states as far as I know; I don't drink) you can "transfer" it to anyone who is of age. If you had to call a government office every time you handed your friend a beer out of your fridge, just to verify that he passes a background check, then you'd have a universal check.

Second, alcohol is a consumable and not a durable good. It's more akin to ammunition that to a firearm.

On top of that, alcohol isn't mentioned as a right in the Constitution at least as of my last reading. (It's mentioned, via amendment, but then "unmentioned" via amendment, so it really isn't mentioned.)

UBC isn't properly enforceable without registration, either registering of firearms or registering of owners. Here's a theoretical situation. I have a shotgun that I was given in the late 80s before background checks were "a thing". My dad bought identical shotguns for my older brother and I at a now-out-of-business retailer. There is probably a record from the manufacturer of the retailer they sent them to, but I doubt there's anything else after that. We got them new-in-the-box, but they were trade-ins and were originally bought a couple of years earlier from a different retailer. Now let's move to the "UBC-is-law" universe. I get stopped. I have that particular shotgun with me. Again, it was purchased waaaaaaay before background checks were required.

Mr. LEO asks me when I bought the gun, so I tell him. He doesn't believe me, which is fine, and he thinks I bought it more recently. A check of my criminal record shows that I don't have a criminal record. He checks the serial number of the gun and sees that it hasn't been reported stolen, because it wasn't. Theoretically, that should be the end of it.

Now, switch the situation slightly. Same gun, different person. Make it any gun that has changed hands in a private transaction prior to the implementation of a UBC. Someone gets pulled over. He has a similar shotgun with him. He has a criminal record, but nothing that would make him a prohibited person. They check the gun and it hasn't been stolen either. He says that he got it years ago, long before the joyous Utopia that is the world of the UBC. The police have nothing that indicates otherwise so they let him go. Same exact outcome.... Until a couple of days later when the same guy is arrested for a double murder committed with that same shotgun. Further investigation reveals that the bad-guy bought the gun very recently in a face-to-face transaction (illegally) from someone who had "borrowed" it from his dad who never used it and wouldn't even notice it was missing for months, if not years. The universal background check law wasn't followed by a criminal! (this is my shocked face - :eek: ) In a UBC world, it's easy to verify that a background check was done on any NEW gun that was sold since all they have to do is contact the manufacturer and follow the chain of to the retailer and check the retailers records. It's not so easy when the gun has changed hands prior the the law taking effect. There is no chain to follow past the initial dealer in most cases. That's one of the flaws in a UBC system; it only really functions on new guns. Guns that existed before in free states have no paper trail if they've ever changed hands in a private transaction.

This drives the news cycle for the next couple of months where the "shortfalls" of the UBC system are paraded across the main-stream media unceasingly. One of those is that there isn't any way to verify that a person actually owns a firearm that they possess. The antis go into full "Wevegottodosomethingthinkofthechildrenifitsavesjustonelifeitwillbeworthit" mode. They know that background checks aren't going to do anything to stop crime. They knew that when it was forced down our proverbial throats. It's impossible for universal background checks to be of any value when going after criminals. But they knew that. All UBC does it burden the law-abiding. So what's the next step?

"We need to register all guns so we know who owns them and if you're caught with a gun you don't own, it's an automatic 10 years in jail." (paraphrasing, but actually proposed by Bill O'Reilly, along with nationwide policy of stop-and-frisk. Two rights infringed for the price of one! ) Without registration, there is no way to know if a background check has been done or if the gun had changed hands at all. Criminals don't go get background checks done when they buy a gun from someone else on the street or steal one from a family member. But since they wouldn't register them either, make registration mandatory and then they're even more worser bad guys. But so is the guy who hasn't bought a new gun for 40 years and, therefore, doesn't think the registration laws apply to him, if he even knows about the new law.

UBC isn't, and has never been the goal. It's just a step and an ineffectual one at that. The goal for the antis is and always has been confiscation. They know that UBC won't solve anything. The only people who will be caught will be otherwise law-abiding gun owners who didn't realize that gifting a rifle to a hunting buddy required a background check. It won't catch actual criminals, other than the occasional add-on charge to some other charge. Even after registration, criminals will still have guns and there will be a whole new set of criminals who didn't register their guns because of misunderstanding of the law.

There's another option. When you get a background check done, you have to have proof of the check with the gun at all times. Again, this doesn't do anything for guns that were owned prior the enacting of the law.

Matt
 
UBC isn't properly enforceable without registration, either registering of firearms or registering of owners. Here's a theoretical situation. I have a shotgun that I was given in the late 80s before background checks were "a thing". My dad bought identical shotguns for my older brother and I at a now-out-of-business retailer. There is probably a record from the manufacturer of the retailer they sent them to, but I doubt there's anything else after that. We got them new-in-the-box, but they were trade-ins and were originally bought a couple of years earlier from a different retailer. Now let's move to the "UBC-is-law" universe. I get stopped. I have that particular shotgun with me. Again, it was purchased waaaaaaay before background checks were required.

Mr. LEO asks me when I bought the gun, so I tell him. He doesn't believe me, which is fine, and he thinks I bought it more recently. A check of my criminal record shows that I don't have a criminal record. He checks the serial number of the gun and sees that it hasn't been reported stolen, because it wasn't. Theoretically, that should be the end of it.
And let's throw in a REAL WORLD example.

Pennsylvania has a "sales registry" that "Isn't really a registry". It ONLY contains (at BEST) firearms purchased IN PA, since the law was passed. If you bought a gun in Ohio when you lived here and subsequently moved to PA, it ABSOLUTELY will NOT be in that database.

Funny thing is, when somebody COMPLETELY innocent of ANYTHING gets stopped by the cops while carrying, for whatever reason, and they're carrying that LEGALLY PURCHASED firearm, there are DOCUMENTED EXAMPLES of those guns being STOLEN (that's the ONLY word for it, since there's no provision in law for it) by cops because they weren't in the non-existent "registry that's not a registry". They THEN have to expend money and effort getting their LAWFUL PROPERTY back subsequent to the UNLAWFUL SEIZURE. THAT is the kind of thing that the anti-gun cult and it's "gun owner" fifth columnists are aiming for... as an OPENING gambit.

Anybody who wants sham "universal background checks" REALLY wants REGISTRATION, and its inevitable conclusion, CONFISCATION. All of the hand waving and deceit in the world can't change that.
 
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UBC requires registration to enforce. That makes it a non-starter. All it would do is save $200 for the NFA stamp for SBR, SBC, suppressors, etc since everything would have to be registered.

Matt
This! The only purpose of UBC is for registration.
 
UBCs are the beginning of the end unless they government figures out an anonymous, recordless way of doing them, which we know won't happen. The ATF already has been keeping illegal lists of firearms purchased for years, even though they were forbidden by law to do so. NFA items are fun but not necessary for defending ourselves from a tyrannical government. I do not support UBCs of any kind unless it is conclusively proven by a dis-interested third party that absolutely no records of any kind are being kept. I want to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them but our government has repeatedly proven that they cannot ever be trusted to not gather and keep data that will obviously be used for confiscation and harassment of law abiding citizens.

Not one inch.
 
If we could remove short barrel rifles/shotguns, suppressors, and Any Other Weapons from the NFA making them no different than non-NFA rifles, shotguns, and handguns in exchange for national Universal Background Checks, would you support it? Explain why or why not.

UBCs are unenforceable unless they are paired with universal registration. If they ever get UBCs they will immediately start lobbying for registration and if they ever get that it will only be a matter of time before they begin confiscation.

No
 
How many gang shootings are committed with guns purchased legally in face to face sales from law abiding citizens who lawfully owned the gun?

That data does not exist.

(keep in mind that no matter if there are examples of that or not, or how many examples, it still would not justify the massive infringement of UBC...but I find it funny antis always worry about things that just don't happen)

Background checks are not an infringement.
 
ONLY if they're done, and that can ONLY be monitored with REGISTRATION, the SOLE purpose of which is facilitation of future confiscation.

The "UBC" con has fizzled.

The vast majority of people follow the law and will do the check if required to do so.

Are there a pool of gun out there that it would be hard to prove a transfer was does without a background check? Yes, there is. That doesn't mean we should do checks on the rest. In time that pool would get smaller. As it stands today it is getting larger and larger by the day.
 
UBCs are unenforceable unless they are paired with universal registration. If they ever get UBCs they will immediately start lobbying for registration and if they ever get that it will only be a matter of time before they begin confiscation.

No

Really? An ATF can't buy a gun from someone in a face-to-face or observe such a sale and bust them for not doing a check?

As to the confiscation thing: Once a ban is in place the battle is lost. Focus on preventing the ban not hiding guns after one.
 
Background checks are not an infringement.

What?

Requiring government permission to acquire a firearm is absolutely an infringement on the Right to keep and bear arms.

Requiring private parties to get government permission (that's what this check is) before transferring possession of a firearm absolutely is an infringement.
 
What?

Requiring government permission to acquire a firearm is absolutely an infringement on the Right to keep and bear arms.

Requiring private parties to get government permission (that's what this check is) before transferring possession of a firearm absolutely is an infringement.

If background checks were an infringement they would not be legal.
 
If background checks were an infringement they would not be legal.

Just lol if you believe every gun control law that is or ever has been on the books is or was Constitutional and not an infringement simply because somebody passed the law. :banghead:
 
The vast majority of people follow the law and will do the check if required to do so.

The vast majority... who cares? Does that make it right? No.

Are there a pool of gun out there that it would be hard to prove a transfer was does without a background check? Yes, there is. That doesn't mean we should do checks on the rest. In time that pool would get smaller. As it stands today it is getting larger and larger by the day.

Registration through attrition? Sounds like you want to eliminate the pool of of untraceable guns.

Some people tend to forget who the government works for. They are not our rulers, or masters. We are theirs.

If background checks were an infringement they would not be legal.

:rolleyes:
 
Just lol if you believe every gun control law that is or ever has been on the books is or was Constitutional and not an infringement simply because somebody passed the law. :banghead:

A law is passed, it is challenged in court, the court decides if the law is legal or not. Yup, that is how it works. Exactly as the people that wrote the Constitution intended. That is why they set things up that way.
 
it is challenged in court,

And if it's never challenged? If people just accept it the way it is... Do you feel the Clinton AWB was lawful? Or were you okay with the idea of banning certain firearms by design or name? You agree with California'a "Safe pistol roster" and microstamping shenanigans? You agree with the multiple infringements that are on the books in numerous states that ban certain guns?

If you're okay with all that, are okay with universal background checks, the NFA, etc. then how can you call yourself Pro 2A?
 
JSH1 said:
Really? An ATF can't buy a gun from someone in a face-to-face or observe such a sale and bust them for not doing a check?

Sure they can but how many do you think they might actually catch?

But if I own a gun that I bought in a private sale with no background check and I sell it to someone else with out a background check how are you going to prove I ever owned the gun?

Hence, registration.

The anti's version of compromise is taking half of what they want now and the other half later.

No compromise Not. One. Inch.
 
I care. The fewer sales to prohibit people the better.

Or maybe keep dangerous offenders in prison. But since the trend recently is (formerly) law abiding citizens who pass background checks (or those who steal guns or murder others to acquire them) being the ones who commit mass murder (and typically suicide) then more background checks Will. Not. Work. Are we going to tack on additional charges for someone who murders a dozen people because he didn't lawfully transfer his guns with a background check? Are we reallt that stupid now?

But because YOU care, it doesn't matter if its legal, or right. You support it, end of story.

If fewer people were prohibited, that would eliminate a great deal of the problem right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAF_Vet View Post
Registration through attrition? Sounds like you want to eliminate the pool of of untraceable guns.
Yes, that would be a good idea.

Why? The vast majority (to use your term) of untraceable guns aren't used to commit crimes. I suppose you support criminal charges for those who fail to report a gun lost or stolen and have it wind up used in a crime the owner had no part in.



Yes we are.

Then act like it. Instead of rolling over and showing your belly to YOUR SERVANTS, tell them NO. No more infringements, no more useless, pointless laws. Unless of course you agree with the ultimate goal these laws are designed to culminate in.
 
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