License need to exercise fundamental Right

[RPCVYemen]

I can't see that the people in question were actually hurting anybody.

I am not particularly happy about people driving around around in illegal vehicles with suspended licenses - my guess is that they are none to careful to keep up their liability insurance.

That means if they hit you or me, we can be impoverished by their actions.

The point of requiring me to register and insure my vehicle and have a valid drivers license is to protect other people I may injure in an accident. I am not required (at least in NC) to require collision insurance, which protects me, but I am required to have liability insurance, which protects others.

As far as the RKBA issues, you may be correct. Though - to be honest - I am a little nervous as to whether folks who are incapable of operating a vehicle responsibly should be carrying around lethal weapons. I can see folks deciding not to operate vehicles, etc. But if you decide to operate a vehicle and cannot do so responsibly, I don't know how comfortable I am with you carrying around a 1911.

Notice that is a statement of my discomfort - not an argument that folks should lose the right to keep an bear arms due to a traffic ticket.

Mike

 

[ivyleague28477]

Too much of this leaves questions in my mind that need answered before I can get behind a movement to exonerate Bill.

strategically speaking, I don't think that comingling various real or imagined rights and responsibilities under the law, in a court case where at least some of the charges will likely be upheld, is an effective way to fight for those rights.

Fair enough. And

Next time, try marching, or sueing, or something that won't get you arrested.

next time (if we are "trying" something) we will. We have in the past. As I stated before, this certainly wasn't an intentional arrest or intentional civil disobedience act. It is however an opportunity. That's all. An incident where opportunity has arisen to fight for what we believe in; what we assumed most folk here believed in as well.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

An incident where opportunity has arisen to fight for what we believe in; what we assumed most folk here believed in as well.

We do, but we do not advocate breaking the law.

 

[Wanta B]

Yeh,try marching in the town next to me...A resident of that town was recording a protest march against the war in Irac,not my favorite folks but have the right to do so! Verbal exchanges were made between some of the protestors and some on the sidelines expressing thier rights...Long story short many of the antis were arrested on rather doubious charges,non of the other side were even detained,the man recording all this was told to leave before the arrests started taking place,wich he did not.The police arrested him three days later on trumped up charges that were later dropped when he lawyered up.What this said to folks on both sides of the fence that I have talked to is that if you use your rights and then are told not to "or else" and then continue to do so you will pay for questioning the "authorities" in one way or another.

Wanta B

 

[ivyleague28477]

I agree with you Wanta B.

On top of that, what is advocated? That we lobby politicians and beg they change the unConstitutional "laws" in our states respectively? While I agree that must also be done, big deal... the next legislative session someone else just reenacts the same old 'laws' so how far did that really get anyone? The only way to enact real change is to have good solid case law, which usually means someone has to stand up and 'break' a law for a case to come up before the court to decide on. Not that we intentionally wanted to be that 'someone' but it is what it is...

 

[WVMountainBoy]

Things that make you go Hmmmm
Too many little holes here, far too many. I won't pass any sort of judgment but will state that WV does suspend registrations for insurance. I have a ccw and am comfortable with that restriction, for many of my own reasons. I am interested to see how this case goes in court, and am curious to this defense of not needing a permit. WV is a shall issue state, so I often advise people its best not to carry till the permit is in hand. I had some "friends" from high school who got a little carried away with the activism and thought it okay to conceal loaded handguns in a car then go about their normal hell raising (consisting mostly of speeding and reckless driving) It didn't pan out very well for them with our officers and I expect it won't work well with our courts.

 

[ivyleague28477]

It's not a permit in New Hampshire, it's a license. And, to try to attempt some accuracy, what I said was Bill may not have been required to have a New Hampshire license. It's not that hard to figure out why.

There are some valid points about recklessness and such; I will agree. I admit I personally have a long list in my MVR, but, for cryin' out loud, it's traffic violations... that doesn't and should never negate my second amendment rights, let alone validate their unlawful seizure of my sidearm, and their keeping it. I could possibly understand their taking possession of it for their own safety until they released me, but upon release of my person my property should have been released as well.

Hmm, I didn't think about the insurance thing. Insurance isn't required in New Hampshire, but, as I said, the truck is registered in RI. Maybe that would be why they're claiming the registration is suspended? Who knows... what I do know is in order to find me guilty of the violation they need to prove I knew it was suspended prior to allowing Bill to drive the truck. Good luck with that... I didn't even know it could be suspended, let alone that it was. Go figure...

 

[NavyLCDR]

what I do know is in order to find me guilty of the violation they need to prove I knew it was suspended prior to allowing Bill to drive the truck.

I beg to differ, Ivy. What they need to prove is that they attempted to notify you that it was suspended. Could it be that the address on that registration is an old address? Could it be that Rhode Island mailed a letter to the address on the registration that it was suspended? It is their responsibility to attempt to notify you, not to track you down to whatever state you might currently be living in. It is your responsibility, and probably Rhode Island law, to notify them of changes of address.

And from your previous post it is clear that you possibly don't maintain liability insurance on that truck? If that is the case, I would like to thank you for your part in causing my uninsured motorist rates to be just a bit higher.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I agree that we shouldn't need a license in order to exercise a constitutional right, however this case is not about that. He was not arrested because he was carrying and didn't have a license. And the guns were not confiscated because he didn't have a license. He was arrested because he was driving after suspension, and the guns were confiscated because he was arrested.

 

[ivyleague28477]

No, Phil, he wasn't. I've been pulled over here for driving on suspended and they issue you a ticket and allow for you to call for another driver to come drive you and the vehicle off the scene. They, on the scene, told us both we were under arrest for counts of concealed carry charges, him two and me one. They later found out I have the New Hampshire conceal carry license and could not charge me with that, so they changed their story for the news media to tell them I was arrested and charged with Disorderly, which I was not.

NavyLT, I haven't had a single accident since the year I got my license (over 12 years ago), and New Hampshire does not have a requirement for insurance. I do not understand how YOUR rates go up when you are in another state; my mother works for Nationwide Insurance and says the uninsured motorists insurance rate is determined state by state, so my not having insurance here would not effect you in any way.

Again, you all don't need to try to dig up dirt where there is none. If you can't support us for your own moral reasons, that's fair enough, but you don't need to try and tear us apart either.

 

[RPCVYemen]

They later found out I have the New Hampshire conceal carry license and could not charge me with that, so they changed their story for the news media to tell them I was arrested and charged with Disorderly, which I was not.

Could their inability to determine whether or not you had a CCW license be related to your giving a false name? Could the disorderly conduct be related to that as well?

Mike

 

[Frank Ettin]

...you all don't need to try to dig up dirt where there is none...

[1] Based on what I've been reading, I'm not convinced that there is no "dirt."

[2] You did come here asking us to contribute money so that you could get yourselves out of your predicament. You have thus exposed yourselves to our inquiries and scrutiny.

 

[ivyleague28477]

*sigh* yes of course, we are evil incarnate and therefore must be stopped. sorry we bothered you in your everyday lives...

 

[Wanta B]

With sooo many laws on the books it is impossible for any of us to have NO dirt somewhere along the line.True that some have much more than others but we have in this country of the FREE and the BRAVE an ENTIRE INDUSTRY based on curtailing those freedoms and punishing those Brave enough to challenge them! All the way down to the gentleman I mentioned earlier that was doing nothing wrong other than recording the wrong doings of the police,and for that Brave act he was punished.Yes the charges against him were dropped but the message was clear and the fact that He had to devote time,energy,reputation...I think everyone here is intelligent enough to get the message hear as most of us are to understand the "message" the epolice were sending!

So who hear feels like they can cast stones with impunity?

Wanta B

 

[ivyleague28477]

Thanks Wanta B.

I'm just curious how many wives of the men here changed their name when they got married? And, I'm just curious, how long after that name change were there instances of people or places of business that did not yet have record of the name change? Were your wives giving a false name? Should they be arrested on Disorderly Charges because of it?

I'll just say one more time: I was never arrested on nor charged with Disorderly Conduct. But hey, it's in the news so it must be right... of course...

 

[RPCVYemen]

I'm just curious how many wives of the men here changed their name when they got married? And, I'm just curious, how long after that name change were there instances of people or places of business that did not yet have record of the name change? Were your wives giving a false name?

So did you in fact give your married name, and that was the cause of the confusion?

I'll just say one more time: I was never arrested on nor charged with Disorderly Conduct. But hey, it's in the news so it must be right...

Were you in fact arrested? What were the charges?

Mike

 

[The Bushmaster]

I'll cast the first stone...With pleasure...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No, Phil, he wasn't. I've been pulled over here for driving on suspended and they issue you a ticket and allow for you to call for another driver to come drive you and the vehicle off the scene.

YES IVY, they have the option to arrest you in NH for driving on a suspended license. If YOU weren't arrested for driving with a suspended license in the past, then consider yourself fortunate.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Topgunner, As a former NH resident and frequent visitor back to the state, I am sorry to hear about the trouble you have been put through. I agree with you (I have only read the first post so far) and hope it goes well for you.

I feel that the quote I keep in my signature is directly inline with the title of your thread. Click on the link and take a look. There are some good quotes, court findings, and other RKBA material (that is not my site).

Federal court decision: "A state cannot impose a license, tax or fee on a constitutionally protected right. Murdock vs. Pennsylvania 319 US 105 (1942)."

It would be nice if these court findings would actually be put into effect, so we didn't have to keep fighting "little" battles over and over.

 

[Kentak]

You are asking us to support you in breaking the law? No? Well, your post was very vague about the specifics of this incident, so forgive me if I'm suspicious. You get on a soapbox and make a speech about how RKBA is a fundament right, blah, blah, not subject to reasonable restriction, blah, blah. We've heard it all before. Maybe most of us agree with you, but maybe we live by what we say about gun laws--namely, that law-abiding citizens obey the laws and criminal don't.

So, how about some more information. How exactly were you and your wife each carrying your weapon? Were there other weapons in the car? What was the reason given for your arrest? What formal charges were filed? You said they didn't like your answers to their questions. What were the questions and how did you answer?

If you are not forthcoming with more information, I'm left to believe you were in violation of one or more gun laws, which you believe you're entitled to ignore because of your interpretation of the Constitution, and now you're whining about it.

I hope I'm wrong. What say you?

K

 

[Kentak]

From one of the linked news reports:

Ankrom was in Manchester District Court on Sept. 29 for failing to appear previously on a 2007 charge of failing to have her motor vehicle inspected and a 2008 charge of operating a motor vehicle after license suspension. At that hearing, Ankrom contended the judge had no constitutional right to fine her or assess her fees for not appearing at the original court dates.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Some people don't get it. If you believe a law or legal procedure is unconstitutional, you challenge it through the legal system. A guy named Heller did that. You don't get to violate the law and yell, "Unconstitutional," and expect to skate.

K

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Federal court decision: "A state cannot impose a license, tax or fee on a constitutionally protected right. Murdock vs. Pennsylvania 319 US 105 (1942)."

Uh huh, I see you have been copying and pasting from here...http://www.freewebs.com/gunlaws/

The decision was in 1943, not 1942. The web site is in error.

 

[karnaaj]

Having read every post in this thread I am comfortable in saying that 90% of the participants would have argued with Jefferson over whether we had the right to declare independence from Great Britain. If this is the best we have to offer we might as well turn in our guns in the morning and be done with it for we are doomed.

 

[TargetTerror]

Ivy and Topgunner, I'm of the opinion that there is too much going on here for anyone to get an accurate assessment of what happened that night from a heated forum discussion. I don't care to judge you at this time, as the court proceedings will flush that out for me.

As someone in the legal profession I URGE YOU TO STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR CASE ON A PUBLIC FORUM IMMEDIATELY. You will be judged in the courtroom, NOT on a thehighroad.org. You will ONLY jeopardize your case by making public statements available for the state to use against you. If you've hired one of the best lawyers in the country, and he says you have a good case, SHUTUP AND LET HIM DO ALL THE TALKING FOR YOU (meant goodheartedly ). Talking will only make his job harder and jeopardize your case.

Convince everyone here or wherever once you've won.

 

[MDMadrid]

Posted by Karnaaja

90% of the participants would have argued with Jefferson over whether we had the right to declare independence from Great Britain.

You are right on that one!! However, our founding fathers subjected themselves to a government who writes and enforces the laws of the land. They did not stay in a “state” of lawlessness; they knew they needed a government (just not a King). Clearly the right to keep and bear arms is a right (I think everyone agrees) but registering your vehicle and keeping the plates current and having insurance are not rights but the laws of our States. They must be obeyed and if violated (as the case here) there should be a penalty.