Life, Death, and Suffering.

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After reading the different responses to "Minimum round for Coyotes?" by camslam, I once again ponder the way each person as an individual views taking an animals life. So I wondered what your thougts may be on this subject. Does every animal "deserve" to die immediately? Do only some animals deserve a quick kill and not others? Is causing suffering to an animal always a bad thing? Is to cause suffering unethical? Is "using not enough gun" always a bad thing?
 
I think if your going to kill an animal you should try to minimize undue suffering. So yes a quick kill is what I wou;d shoot for.
 
I feel that it is particularly egregious to shoot an animal without taking reasonable steps to insure a quick death.

I do have a church-going buddy of mine (not a shooter or hunter, but not anti either) who will quite literally tell you straight up, "Animals don't have souls, so it doesn't matter." Ugh.


-T.
 
Another person who's into "inflict minimum pain and suffering". It just seems like the moral way to treat anything. Hey, I'm not even into insulting people, for that matter.

Inflicting gratuitous and unnecessary hurt of any sort seems plumb stupid.

Art
 
Yotes don't know right from wrong, they only know best to survive. To hold a grudge against it even if he killed your pet and to not put it down with a clean shot because of that is inhumane and wrong.

So, to answer your questions:
Does every animal "deserve" to die immediately? If you take it upon yourself to kill an animal, you have an obligation to do it as humanely as possible.
Do only some animals deserve a quick kill and not others? Nope, they all deserve to be treated the same in that respect.
Is causing suffering to an animal always a bad thing? Yes.
Is to cause suffering unethical? Yes.
Is "using not enough gun" always a bad thing? If you can help it, yes. If all you have is a .22 short and you need to defend yourself, another person, or your pet against a wild animal, I would say it's acceptable to not use "enough gun", so long as you make it as clean as possible with what you have.
 
I do not care if it is a horse or a varmint or predator or rabid dog if one HAS TO do so put it down as quickly and humanely as possible, period.:fire::cuss::fire:
 
Well, Bartkowski, I agree that minimizing suffering is what we should strive for. But like Thernlund showed, not everyone cares about it. Some hunters would rather take a chance on a long shot, perhaps with a short range weapon, and hope for the best, feeling the possibility of a kill is better than letting it walk. Of course, I realize that even if someone feels that way, not many will admit to that on a hunting forum!

But I also think there are times when it may not matter, or at least it wouldn't to me. Personally, anything that is a pest, I would say, shoot it with what ever you weapon you have at the time. As a rule, I would not advocate shooting an animal beyond the effective range of the weapon on hand, especially during a sport hunt.

But let's say, for example that a raccoon, coyote, fox, or some other predator was getting into my chickens and killing them, or being a nasty pest in some other way.
If I came out with my 12 ga. shotgun one night and said pest was standing 75 yards away and that is the only shot I had, BANG! If it doesn't kill it, I hope it eats his butt up so good he won't come back. If it goes off to die, that is great. I could see the same senario for a farmer who may see a coyote anywhere on his farm and has had problems with them getting his livestock. In some cases, dead later even if it does suffer is better than continuing on as a nuisance.

I have known guys who, after a kill, will say a prayer for the "soul" of an animal. Of course, they don't have souls or killing them would be murder. But I still don't like to make things suffer needlessly regardless. But like Thernlund mentioned, not everyone cares very much about it. I hunted with a guy that had no remorse for wounding a hog with out recovery. He said it was just an old hog, and if it went off to die, so what? He just went after another one.

I have respect to an animals ability to make my hunt challenging, and I have an overall respect to life as creatures God has made. I also know that we are put in charge of all creatures, and somethings in this life need to be culled. Either because they are a danger, or because they have become a pest. If deer become so populated that they are nothing more than a nuisance (and they are in some places) then they need to be culled. And a man can only butcher or donate so many. So in some cases, getting rid of a pest may be more important than whether they are processed or how much they suffer. A fleeting opportunity which could result in suffering before death may be seen as better than no opportunity at all. The topic about the minimum round for a coyote indicated to me that perhaps some people might not have the same care for a non-suffering shot on one species that they deem ethical for another, and I am not judging anyone for it, I simply find it interesting. Not that I don't have feelings about suffering, I was simply attempting be objective, and not to biasedly lead the topic a certain way. :)
 
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I agree with .41 Mag. I want a quick, clean kill. I especially want one when hunting, but I will take any shot that presents itself at say, a woodchuck in my horse pasture, a muskrat digging holes in my pond bank, a raccoon in my garbage, anything messing with my livestock, etc. I'd rather kill a varmint like that quickly, but I'll take any piece of it I can get. Varmint hunting, on the other hand, is a different deal altogether. I'm looking for them, and have an obligation to take as much care with my shot as at a deer...
 
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As quickly & humanely as possible. This includes passing up that long, bad angle, etc. one-chance-in-a-hundred shot. I don't know about the rest of you but I feel bad (for lack of a better word) when I wound an animal and it gets away. I am not the world's greatest shot or hunter and in the last 5 or 6 years of hunting I have lost one animal - a ground hog that managed to crawl into his burrow. From the appearance of the blood trail I don't know how it managed to crawl that far with that much damage. The will to survive is amazing.
 
I agree with Mannix, but you post an interesting scenario .41 magnum man.

I believe in the ethical pursuit of game when hunting. I will not take an unethical shot - even if I believe it to be my only hope. I will not hunt again with someone who exhibits such behavior.

But, given the scenario you presented - that being a varmint or predator that is an immediate threat - I would have no problem using whatever means I had at hand, taking what would otherwise be considered "unethical" means to dispatch the threat as quickly as possible.

As for those "hunters" who lob long-distance shots at animals in hopes of maybe hitting something, I have nothing but contempt for them. I'm not talking about precision shots by people who have honed their skills to maximize their long-distance capability. I'm talking about the guys that shoot a couple of times a year, show no concern about wounding an animal and have no concept of sporting morality.

stellarpod
 
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Mannix summed it up very well. As for
Some hunters <who> would rather take a chance on a long shot
I wouldn't describe such as "hunters," but rather as "trigger-pullers." With hunting comes ethical responsibility.
 
I think thaty you should take and animal life no matter what in a quick humain way no matter what. If you are lost in the woods and all you have is a 22. lr and you see your only source of food a deer then yes i think that it would not be wrong to take it if it is as clean as possible.
 
I guess I'd separate game animals from pestiferous predators. I'd try to kill some marauding animal cleanly, but if by chance it were merely wounded and escaped I'd have few regrets.

A game animal is different.

Example: I once shot a buck in the chest, and headed toward it to do the usual field-dressing chore. He jumped up and ran; I'd pulled low and had only broken the near foreleg, sorta high up. I went to kill him and got a scope full of 4X setting sun. I'm still grumpy about it, and that was some 35 years ago.

But I replaced the trigger assembly in that rifle, and never pulled low again.

Art
 
One-shot clean kills...

.....Are the way to go in hunting.

Years ago though, I was faced with moving a newly moved in pig herd from my hunting area. At first, you could shoot them from the car window along the lake road with a Browning Hipower 9mm or a Ruger Mk1 Target .22. Then you could walk in among them on a wooded hillside over the creek with a Ruger 357. Then I went to a rifle sitting in the tree that held a corn feeder they had zeroed in on, then to a scoped rifle. Finally I was shooting any PART of a pig I saw with a scoped rifle. I shot heads, butts, legs, quartering shots, side shots, rear shots, lucky shots, chancy shots. They went nocturnal but you could find the herd if you walked the creekbottom going upwind every now and then.

They moved after I had killed 37 hogs. They haven't been back since 1993. I just saw the FIRST pig dropping back in my area the other day. If I get a shot at a pig- or any PART of a pig, I'm shooting.

Same thing at Clarksville on the ranch. Pigs get shot. A crippled, wounded pig is better than a healthy pig. We aren't hunting them as game animals we are trying to eradicate them.

Seems like the difference between hunting and war.
 
I believe an animal should be killed legally, quickly and with respect. I also believe, other than keeping things legal, that there will always be exceptions to the other two.....intentional or not.
 
Hmmm

This is a fascinating thread and I think there's more to the question than just what has been explored. (For the purpose of discussion I'll use a secular/evolutionary slant rather than any religious ideology.)

First of all I think that we have a natural right to hunt and kill animals which is based on the biological imperative of our evolution as omnivores and our concrete personal need to live and procreate which cannot be trumped by the needs of 'the collective' nor the abstract (philosophical/religious/moral) needs of others. We have the natural right to protect our property and our food supply against whatever marauder which would try to take it and in doing so damage us. (mossberg702, in my reading on the subject of ethics of survival hunting I found it interesting that even Peter Singer has acknowledged conditions under which our individual human needs outweigh those of animals. That was a real surprise!)

There are people who argue that we should rightly be vegetarians and stop killing animals but these people don't acknowledge the fact that vegetarians increase their ecological footprint (including deaths of animals) by such behavior. In an industrial society, hunting and small farming (including free range chickens and grass-fed ruminants) creates habitat for a much wider variety of species than is created by the factory farms needed to feed vast herds of urban vegans.

Vegans might argue a math which would tell them that an acre of ground can grow enough rice to feed five peasants but it could only feed enough water buffaloes, to maintain one peasant. This ignored the problem that the five need five times the amount of straw, five times the cotton for cloth, five times the firewood, five times the space et cetera so that in the end it takes five acres of land to support them but the land is spoiled in the process. Extrapolating, this means that one college campus full of 10,000 vegans might require the resources of 2,000 acres of corn monoculture, 200 acres of cotton monoculture, 100 acres of intense vegetable gardens, a guano mine and strip mine or two, half the production of a plastics factory, 1/40 of an automobile plant, two dozen oil wells, and 1/20,000 the production of a nuclear reactor. All this resource usage require land spoilage including the systemic eradication of competing animals from grasshoppers to bears.

The vegan would immediately argue that Meek's farming efforts directily kill critters, and they could probably subpoena a few deer and a couple of henhouse possums and coons as witnesses. But the truth is that an individual hunter-farmer is much less efficient in killing animals than is a dedicated horde of urban vegans. More important the individual hunter feels a personal responsibility toward the animals and for their well being.

Which leads me to the observation that in general hunters are more humane than not. Its been 35 years and Art still feels "grumpy" about one single ruminant which ran off and either became food for a pack of hungry coyotes or healed and spent its lifetime breeding fast healing rugged offspring. On the other hand the vegan whose food habits cause an entire field full of bumblebees, grasshoppers, moles, voles and songbirds to be killed with pesticides and plowed under neither knows nor cares nor grows from the experience.

It seems clear to me that hunting makes us inarguably aware of both our humanity and our mortality, a perspective that nonhunters and especially vegans lack. I find it edifying that hunters debate the ethics of gut-shot coyotes and pellet-stung raccoons. Perhaps if enough citizens hunted our opinions might carry over to the general way that governments carry on diplomacy and wage war. ;)

Two links of interest:
Link 1
Link 2
 
Pretty much any animal from a elk to a ground squirrel I do my best to finish as quickly and cleanly as possible, that said, We were having a real problem with crows and/or Magpies and I learned if I shot em with a 22LR 90% would have to buried, but if I used a CB 90% would fly off. I now use CB's. I don't seem to lose any sleep over it.
 
I do have a church-going buddy of mine (not a shooter or hunter, but not anti either) who will quite literally tell you straight up, "Animals don't have souls, so it doesn't matter." Ugh.

Thernlund, next time you see your friend. It is harmful to HIS soul to have such an attitude. For those that believe in the Lord to mistreat animals is akin to blasphemy and an affront to those of us with morals. Tell him to walk upright and act in a manner according to his birth.

I believe it is one's personal duty to lessen suffering of any kind.
 
Another person who's into "inflict minimum pain and suffering". It just seems like the moral way to treat anything.
+1

IMHO a humane kill is one that ends teh game's life as quickly as possible with as little pain as possible If a wounded animal is still alive as I approach it I will always end it quickly with a head shot.
 
Suffice to say that on those occasions (and, unfortunately some have occured) that I failed to make a swift, clean kill on a critter . . . it bothered me. Over the years, I have learned to NOT take bad shots & and have continued to amplify my "trigger time" and have greatly enhanced my accuracy skills as a result. If I'm not sure of a clean, swift finish I DON"T take the shot (personal defense situations/me or them/it events excluded & I have invested a ton of practice relative to those scenarios, also.). I will ever be the son my Father raised.
 
Wow,this could get deep. I'll say that everything living has a spark that gives them life and it exists after they die, call it a soul if you want. I meet hunters all the time from all over who think it's acceptable to have wounded elk or deer, run off and either heal up, die, or be claimed by another hunter.
I have never thought that way, but to some extent I have to put up with it.
I don't have a problem with long shots from a firearm if the homework has proved out.
 
All animals game or vermin deserve the same respect. A fast clean death. Talking about whether or not they have souls is just bulls##t.
 
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