Loads for Service Rifle M1 Garand
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Length of the grain. IMR 4064 is a pre WW2 powder and it was long grained. IMR 4895 not only was progressive burning, like 4064, it was shorter, and because of that, it was used in the WW2 ammunition. I assume because it threw better. The 7.62 Nato was developed with IMR 4895.
Based on my measurements, IMR 4895 throws about plus or minus half a grain from my Dillion. As you can see from my chronograph data, all of those loads had thrown charges, the extreme spreads and standard deviations are just fine. However, IMR 4064 is a long grain powder and it throws around plus or minus a grain. When I did chronograph IMR 4064, it took about one grain more to develop the same velocity as IMR 4895, with a 168 grain bullet.
One pre WW2 powder that I used in the 308 Win was IMR 3031. It is faster than IMR 4895. It was as long grained as IMR 4064. This powder shot very well and functioned the M1a rifle fine, in fact, I think it could be a better powder for the 7.62 Nato and it could be better for the Garand, as the powder is faster burning. It is my opinion, for gas guns, what you really want is a pressure curve that drops fast. You want the brass case to springback/ retract, from the chamber walls and not drag during extraction. So a quick drop off in residual breech pressure is desirable in a gas gun as long as the operating rod has the energy to cam the bolt open and extract the case.
This is the Garand gas system:
IMR 3031 should do this nicely in the Garand mechanism, I know it works great in the gas expansion system of the M1a, but it used to be too long to throw in progressive presses. Recently I purchased a keg and the stuff now is very short grained.I wonder if it is a copy of N135. I shot kegs of that through my match AR15's. It is also a very fast, short grained powder. IMR 3031 did great in my 30-30 Win. Because of all the kegs of IMR4895/H4895/AA2495 I am not going to develop loads for the Garand with IMR 3031, but I think it has promise. IMR 3031 is not a magnum powder, so for those looking to push velocities to the max, it is not the powder you want in a 30-06. But then, reloading for gas guns, pushing velocities to the max is a great way to create malfunctions, bolt over rides, ripped rims, bent operating rods, cracked receiver heels.
Hot HXP surplus did this to this Garand receiver.
the bolt rebounds off the receiver heel, make that bolt move too fast, due to gonzo reloading practices, and your receiver may look like this:
or this:
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Gone Hiking
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46.5 grns of IMR4895, with Win primers, HXP brass, and 168 grn Nosler Custom Competition (blems), to 3.305" OAL have worked well for me. I've only shot my Garands in 100 and 200 yd matches, though, no XTC.
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Charlie98
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I originally used IMR4895 in my M80 equivalent loads for my M1a... which is a 16" barreled Socom16. I've since switched to IMR3031... I get better velocity and better accuracy with it vs IMR4895. It's quite possible it would work better in a standard M1a.. I hope to find out one day. As far as my Garand, I'll stick with the tried and true IMR4895...
edwardware
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Can you source that chart?
Appendix G
Report Number: SA-TR11-2610
Gas Systems Caliber .30 T44 Rifle
Springfield Armory 2 Aug 1954
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D.B. Cooper
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I didn't feel the need to quote/repost your entire thread, but I did want to thank you for sharing all of that knowledge. It must have taken up quite a bit of your time to type it all out.
Thanks. I am proud I earned my Distinguished Rifleman's Badge with a M1a, and earned a Regional Gold acquiring my last leg points. To get there, I had to learn the hard way about what works in this mechanism. I pulled targets with a lot of shooters who had slamfires in Garands and M1a's, and of course, I always asked what they were shooting. I found, as probably most have found, that in the popular press, information on the safety aspects of reloading for this mechanism is virtually non existent. And what information was out there, was deliberately misleading. Totally ignoring the role and risk of sensitive primers.
Agnotology is an interesting topic in its own right. Why don't you know, what you don't know?
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D.B. Cooper
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LOL. So the I.B. program at the school where I teach teaches a course called Theory of Knowledge, which explores, essentially, the opposite question: "how do we know what we know?"
By the way. Looks like I'll be using CCI 300 standard Large Rifle primers. The Mil-spec No. 34 is unobtainium up here, and there is no possible way to ship them here. So, I'm hoping the 300s are the next best thing and good enough.
Maj Dad
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Download Master Po's - I did some years back, and printed a couple of copies to litter the reloading area with...
Maj Dad
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In 50 years of reloading I have never used the (in my light-hearted opinion) johnny-come-lately Mil Spec primers simply because they weren't available anywhere at any price (and I never knew they were available, anyway). I have shot thousands of Garand & M14 loads with never a problem but I always used Win or CCI, and definitely avoided Federals in autoloaders only because they had a reputation of being soft - I have no personal experience with that. I didn't know I had a problem for not using GI primers until a few years ago - thank goodness me & a few thousand other guys didn't blow ourselves up back in the '60's and '70's!
ArchAngelCD
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Just a note, the CCI-300 primers are LPP which I'm sure you knew but posted it incorrectly.
I have used the CCI-200 LRP in my M1 ammo but would rather the CCI-250 LPMP instead. The #34 primers are magnum class so the CCI-250s are a better substitute. If you can get the 250s I would use them over the 200s.
A gun club bud of mine, "Major King", we were discussing slamfires at a club dinner one time. Major King joined the Army sometime in the late 1950's, went to Vietnam, actually carried a Garand for a time in Vietnam. He could have seen millions of rounds go downrange in Garands, and said he had never seen or heard of a slamfire in service. But, he was not looking for slamfires. He had accidental shooting stories, it is amazing how many ways service men could shot themselves, or their buddies.
He did had one story, from a Vietnam patrol. He was the Officer leading the patrol and they were in an ambush on a trail. A VC or NVA comes down the trail and Private "Gungho" jumps out and shoots at the VC/NVA with his 30 cal Carbine. Major King had actively tried to discourage Private Gungho from carrying the carbine, but someone, maybe a Dad, an Uncle had carried one in a previous war, and Private Gungho was emotionally invested in the thing. According to Major King, the carbine "blew up" in Private Gungho's hands. The shot also missed the VC/NVA and so startled the guy, he was frozen in place. Private Gungho then drew his Gerber knife, charged the VC/NVA, knocked him down, and stabbed him to death. The event was so gruesome that Major King winced when telling the story. There was probably a lot of screaming and blood. To me, I think the the carbine had an out of battery event, I don't know what happened to the weapon, it was probably discarded, when they cleared out from the area. No forensic examination of the weapon was performed, at least not to the satisfaction of a slamfire denier or a slamfire advocate. You can imagine, a LURP patrol, behind enemy lines, and they wanted to get out of there because all the noise probably alerted the enemy. Major King did not think it was an out of battery event. To him, carbines were junk and blow ups were something you would expect from a 30 caliber carbine. Because they were junk.
Anyway, decades after the Vietnam War, Major King is at the range with a club match M1. These have been sold now, but the club purchased these in the 1970's, from the DCM. These were very rare Lackland AF built 308 NM Garands, all "GI". Major King loaded a reload in the chamber, dropped the bolt, and the rifle slamfired in battery. He was surprised. Never say never.
The Army knew the characteristics of its weapons and issued ammunition that had rather insensitive primers. Slamfires with ball ammunition are rare, and out of battery slamfire incidents with ball ammunition are even rarer, but they are out there. I used to post pages of slamfire stories I found on the web. Not that it makes any difference to slamfire deniers. People only see what they want to see. For example, in this thread, I referenced an Army test report where the Army documented an out of battery slamfire event in a production M14. Deniers discount that report. They don't see it, it does not fit into their cosmology. It can't happen to them because they don't believe it can happen. I used to debate some very persistent slamfire deniers, two of them, HughUno and John Kepler. They were positively insistent that I was a fool, a liar, that the Garand mechanism was perfect, could not, would not slamfire due to sensitive primers. They were adamant that primer sensitivity had nothing to do with anything, mil spec primers were a fraud, CCI primers were crap, etc, etc. Later I found postings that both of them had experienced in battery slamfires with US ball ammunition in their CMP Garands. That had not changed their opinions: Kepler claimed his slamfire was due to "old ammunition", and HughUno claimed that since nothing bad happened it was a non event, and the Garand mechanism could not slamfire out of battery. Both are the types of deniers who who move the goal posts to avoid admitting that sensitive primers could ignite without the trigger being pulled.
So, if you don't believe in slamfires, there are lots of people in that club. I don't want to be around any of them when they have weapons in their hands. The most important element to firearm safety is attitude.
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D.B. Cooper
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Yeah. I just got my numbers mixed up. I use a LOT of Large Pistol Primers, so that number was stuck in my head.
Charlie98
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I wouldn't have any hesitation on using 200 or 250 CCI primers... the big thing is to make sure they are seated flush, or, preferably, slightly below flush. The other factor is wear on the safety bridge and the firing pin... as shown in Slamfire's excellent photos.
edwardware
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Ok, I give up. I can't find a .pdf, or mention of a printed copy, anywhere. The closest is a reference in Random Shots by Rayle.
You don't happen to have a digital copy do you?
Random 8
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I have dabbled with the M1 over the course. I shoot one load for this and also for 200 yard JCG courses. This does simplify things. I run 168 Hornady BTHP over 46 gr I4064 in HXP brass with a Fed 210m seated below flush aprox. 06. This is about as close to THE M1 load as you can get. Some will substitute IMR or H 4895 or Varget in the same weight give or take. I seat to Hornady OAL from their book. Longer can cause issues in the M1. To 600 yards I have been able to match my scores vs. my AR dedicated long line heavy bullet load. If I shot the M1 better in rapids, I'd probably run more matches with it. Yes, most powders suitable for the M1 meter poorly. I throw short and trickle.
How did Private Gungho get said Carbine and use it. Was he in a unit that was using sterile weapons?
In my experience there is a general rule of thumb that you using something not issued to you is frowned upon.
Now if he was in some "special" unit ok......but again those "special" units really did all they could to keep from "jumps out and shooting".
My uncle was in vietnam in the early 60's.....before he passed we had a "gun day" where he could shoot and I would clean....one thing he did not want to shoot was the M1 Carbine, said he had one in vietnam and was not impressed....I could not get more then that. Said he carried an AK and wished he could bring it back home.....he brought a bunch of stuffs home....IIRC 8 big foot lockers.....to this day I don't know what was in them....us kids are "allowed" into the top two in the front....they had uniforms, netting, tents....just tons and tons of stuff.
Heck if I know.
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Maj Dad
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I'm a fervent believer in the laws of statistics, especially Murphy's. I've been lucky with rifles, but I blew the left grip off a Jimmy Clark 38 spl 1911 with a friend's double charged reload. Still have that case with the blown out rear segment on my reloading bench since my chariot lacks a rider reminding me of my mortality. I have taken to uniforming the primer pockets of rifle cases to make sure they aren't shallow - that's a direct result of the slam fire issues and an easy way to minimize one variable. I have several thousand rounds of GI and other factory ammo for the Garand and M14, so reloading isn't a pressing need. At my age, I need to start shooting it up since it ain't gonna fit in the coffin...
That is one good step, I am going to state that reducing the risk of a slamfire is a series of steps as I have listed above. Sizing the case smaller than the chamber, getting the primer below the case head, and using the least sensitive primer you can. All actions with free floating firing pins are dependent on primer insensitivity to prevent primer ignition. All actions with free floating firing pins have incidental firing pin contact with the primer at some point in their cycle, designs such as the SKS, the bolt face is off axis until lock up, so slamfires in that action tend to be in battery.
Avoiding slam-fire on SKS?
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/avoiding-slam-fire-on-sks.244071/
Murray's sells a firing pin modification kit, which includes a spring which reduces the impact energy of the firing pin on bolt closure: https://murraysguns.com/sks-firing-pins/
The Italians made Garands for the Danes, and I assume, had their own.
When the Italians adopted the Garand based BM rifle, they modified the bolt mechanism by adding a spring. Obviously this is to reduce the inertial impact of the firing pin on a primer
As can be seen in the picture, I sent my NM Garand bolt to Roland Beaver and he added a spring.
I don't know by how much it reduces firing pin impact energy, I think it is all to the good, but still, put a round in the chamber, drop the bolt, and this is what the primer looks like
Literally millions of shooters have chambered rounds, seen the dimple left by the firing pin, and never pondered why the primer had not gone off. Also, millions of users never shook the bolt and listened to the firing pin rattling around, nor turned the action upside down to see what in the action was holding the firing back. There is nothing holding the firing pin back. Everyone assumes something is, but they never looked. This rifle came out in 1936. eighty three years, and yet generations of shooters have never examined the mechanism to see what keeps the cartridge from firing if the trigger is not pulled. What keeps the cartridge from igniting is primer insensitivity.
I can't find my notes when I talked to CCI when they first introduced the CCI #34 primer on the market, but it was around 1999. This primer is CCI's military primer, what they use on military contracts, and the average primer is a little less sensitive than a commercial primer. On the average. It turns out, primers vary considerably in sensitivity, and sometimes, surprises happen
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...232052308.html
By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Tue, Jun 12, 2012
Slamfires happen even with military spec primers because priming compound varies in sensitivity within the batch. Some primers in the same lot are more sensitive than the others. There are test limits, but you know, they only test about 50 primers at the low energy drop test. How do you know that all primers in the lot, and that lot is probably hundreds of thousands of primers, are above spec limits? You don't, all the manufacturer can do is statistical tests which predict lot sensitivity.
Everyone has had a dud primer, an insensitive primer, so shooters believe in insensitive primer. But if the primer goes off, how do you tell if it was a sensitive primer? Shooters therefore don't observe primer sensitivity and don't believe what they don't see. (that is until you shoot Bullseye Pistol rimfires and find some brands ignite but others stove pipe or fail to eject, or cut coils on pistol mainsprings) But sensitive primers exist in all primer batches which is why there are reports of slamfires with military ammunition. But, the most sensitive primers are commercial primers, particularly Federal primers, and when I use to ask shooters about slamfires, the common thread was Federal match primers. Federal makes the most sensitive primer on the market and used to be proud to advertise that. Federal also makes a mil spec primer and supposedly introduced it for small rifle primers, but have never seen one.
There are construction differences between commercial primers and mil spec primers, and this post is accurate:
Magnum Primers in Standard Cartridges
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594411
By using a thicker cup, increasing the distance between cup and anvil, and changing the anvil tip shape, and varying what is in the primer compound, manufacturers alter primer sensitivity.
Reloaders should copy the dimensions of a new military round, by small base sizing, and priming the case with the least sensitive primer they can, and never orient the rifle vertically down when single loading. That little extra added acceleration due to gravity has caused a lot of AR15 slamfires, and Garand slamfires.
The NRA forbid reloading on the stool when AR's started replacing M1a's. When you shot slow fire standing, with an M1a, you had the butt of the rifle on the stool, you pushed a round in the magazine, tripped the bolt. The muzzle was pointed at the sky and I never heard or saw a M1a slamfire in this orientation. But, the AR shooters started placing the muzzle on the shooting stool, put a round in the chamber, tripped the bolt, and reports started coming in that rounds were going through shooting stools. Now you can't load or rest a loaded rifle on the shooting stool.
I'm a fervent believer in the laws of statistics, especially Murphy's. I've been lucky with rifles, but I blew the left grip off a Jimmy Clark 38 spl 1911 with a friend's double charged reload. Still have that case with the blown out rear segment on my reloading bench since my chariot lacks a rider reminding me of my mortality. I have taken to uniforming the primer pockets of rifle cases to make sure they aren't shallow - that's a direct result of the slam fire issues and an easy way to minimize one variable. I have several thousand rounds of GI and other factory ammo for the Garand and M14, so reloading isn't a pressing need. At my age, I need to start shooting it up since it ain't gonna fit in the coffin...
I have one hard rule that will never EVER be broken.
I will not shoot anyone else reloads but mine.
I am about as anal as you can get when it comes to reloading. Everything....and yes that means EVERYTHING is at least double checked.
I read threads about inconsistent loads.....really how.....only way I can see it is you are doing it really fast. My cases are all measured and weighed before anything happens....powder is weighed as it comes out of the machine....those automatic powder drop machines are super cool....I have the RCBS version....then that charge is weighed again as powder and case get together for the first time....the boolits are weighed and sorted.....and oddly enough the FPS numbers are all right there.
Charlie98
Member
I can appreciate you attention to detail, but I only have one rifle that would benefit from that amount of... uh, anality. I don't have oodles of time to set there and weigh every charge or every bullet... nor would 90% of my firearms benefit from such. That doesn't mean my loads are inconsistent; if I'm having issues with an inconsistent load, it's most likely a mismatch of bullet and firearm, or a new load that is not yet proven.
Not to want to start an argument.....well kinda, I am the troll on this forum.....but I bet if you own more then one rifle you have more then one rifle that would benefit from that.
I started down the road with what most people do.....a "good" rifle trying to be made better.....and it was better....but not WOW LOOK AT THIS better.
Then I started reloading for "other junky stuff".....Carcano, 7.7 Jap, 7.5 french....you see where this is going. And taking a carcano that goes from minute of basketball at 100 with partizan to minute of softball with your home rolled....really makes you feel like you did something. Now none of the other stuff I have gotten that fantastic of improvement out of.....but the next project is a trapdoor and if the flood waters ever go away I have boxes of different recpies (i can not spell that fricken word) loaded up for testing. I had about 10 rounds of "safe for all rifles" Remington green and gold box and know FPS #'s and how they shot so I have a base line....mine are a little different with cast boolits and such but still....to see just how good I can make this old war horse is fun.
Really (for me) taking a gun that shoots really darn good and seeing just how much gooder I can make it.....eh, big deal.
Now taking something that is pretty crappy and seeing the improvement I can get with simple reloading.....that is real fun....and really makes me feel like (I) did something.
Give it a try you might like it.
Charlie98
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Different strokes for different folks...
I have one rifle that I expect That Kind of accuracy out of, the others I don't shoot that way, and I don't beat myself to death trying to get them there. That isn't to say they aren't accurate... The other consideration is components... I guess if you are shooting 1000yds, weighing each SMK for consistency might get you another X, but weighing 1000 cheapo 145grn FMJs would border on insanity.
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