looking for advice on pistol shooting

[10mm Mike]

I went to the range today to sight in a couple rifles for deer season, and I took my Bersa Ultra Compact in .45 with me because I just put some new night sights on it last night and wanted to try it out.

So the first few mags through it, I was consistently low and to the left. I was confident that it wasnt the sight alignment since I shoot most of my pistols low and to the left. So I figured I got the sight alignment correct on the new sights, lol.

I take some time to try and figure out what I'm doing wrong, and then I see it: a minor flinch right before I pull the trigger - low and to the left. So I loosen my grip alittle bit and slowly squeeze the trigger so that it shoots "by surprise". Success! the next few mags are dead center at 15 yards.

So here comes the part where I'm looking for advise: When I was flinching, I had a tight grip to control the recoil & muzzle flip better. When I corrected my flinch, my grip is lighter, so the muzzle flip is noticeably worse but the bullet actually goes where I want it to. What do I need to do so that I can control recoil & muzzle flip, but also hit what I'm aiming at?

p.s. having poor eye sight makes using iron sights on rifles way more difficult than it ever should be.

 

[BCRider]

You've already found the secret but it just seems wrong to you because you're thinking the wrong way.

You will NEVER be able to hold the gun against the recoil so don't even try. Instead what you want, and as you found, is only just enough support to hold the gun steady as you pull the trigger while keeping the gun centered on the target. As you found this is best when the force you hold the gun with is about what you would use as a handshake with a good friend. Firm but not hard enough to imply trying to promote dominance Clenching your hand tighter makes it harder to isolate the movement of your trigger finger from the rest of your hand and is just a great recipe for pulling the gun off target.

I also find that it helps to push forward with the strong hand and hold back with the weak hand to exstablish a light but firm isometric tension between the two hands. It greatly aids in having the gun walk out of the weak support hand's grip. At the same time your arm muscles will be more steady with tension in them than just holding themselves up.

So light to firm supportive grip without being too hard and a bit of push and pull to steady the arms.

 

[jhallrv4]

It may help to change the grip just slightly differently. If you're pulling slightly to one side or the other, move the pistol just slightly, very slightly in your hand towards the opposite side. And if you're pulling it down slighty, try just a bit more pressure with the upper fingers on the grip, and a little less with the little finger.

My eyesight is nothing to be proud of anymore, but the tiny aperture on my rear sight (national match AR15) is enough to put the front sight in focus. Front sight focus is the key. 600yds with iron sights is very rewarding with these old eyes. Match is about all an aperture that small is good for, but it rocks for matches!

Jeff

BTW, the previous post about pushing with the strong hand and pulling with the weak hand is GREAT advice. Very strong yet forgiving grip. Really helps with follow up shots, too.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well now I'm going to offer you the opposite view of how to shoot a handgun...that will give you polar opposite choices in what to do

As BCRider correctly posted, you cannot control recoil...what you goal is, is to manage the muzzle flip so that your sights return back to your original POA before you pressed off the prior shot.

You should envelope the gun in your hands without pushing or pulling either hand. Your strong hand should have the handshake pressure to allow the trigger finger the most freedom of motion...the finger pull the grip into the pocket of your hand. The support hand applies lateral pressure...this is what holds the gun steady. Neither thumb should be applying pressure to the gun...just point them toward the target. It doesn't even matter how much finger you use on the trigger...but it is easier to press the trigger straight back if you use less finger on the trigger.

Press the trigger and allow the sights to return onto your target. Don't worry, the gun won't jump out of your hand. I demonstrate this for students by shooting while holding the gun with just my middle finger pressing the gun back into the palm of my strong hand..either 9mm or .45ACP

 

[10mm Mike]

So light to firm supportive grip without being too hard and a bit of push and pull to steady the arms.

Ah, I think this is the piece of information I am looking for. Follow-up shots were exceptionally slow for me without using a strong grip because of the muzzle flip and the gun walking out of my support hand's grip. When I was using the strong grip, I could do follow-up shots reasonably quick, but the shots were off target.

If it makes a difference, I was using a high grip and resting my thumb on top of the safety. My grip was high enough to get a little bit of hammer bite, so I put on a shooting glove. I'm not sure I could adjust my grip very much on this particular gun since there isn't much real estate for hand placement, though there is enough for me to use thumbs forward instead of thumb over thumb.

You should envelope the gun in your hands without pushing or pulling either hand. Your strong hand should have the handshake pressure to allow the trigger finger the most freedom of motion...the finger pull the grip into the pocket of your hand. The support hand applies lateral pressure...this is what holds the gun steady. Neither thumb should be applying pressure to the gun...just point them toward the target. It doesn't even matter how much finger you use on the trigger...but it is easier to press the trigger straight back if you use less finger on the trigger.

This sounds like what I was doing to correct my flinch, except for the part about the thumbs. As I mentioned above, I rest my strong hand thumb on top of the safety, and the weak hand thumb further down the frame on the take down lever. My weak hand thumb is just resting, not applying much pressure, but strong hand thumb is applying the same amount of pressure as the rest of my strong hand.

What do you do so that you can get reasonably quick follow up shots?

 

[Sunray]

"...shoot most of my pistols low and to the left..." Hi. Go here and scroll down to the Lee 'TargetLeft/Right handed .pdf. Free, of course.
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html
"...having poor eye sight makes..." That's what glasses are for. All prescription glasses have impact resistant lenses.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm a bit confused when you say thumb over thumb...it sounds like your doing it right when you say you are pointing the left thumb forward...but thumb over thumb usually means to me that the left thumb is covering the right thumb. My right thumb usually rides atop the back of my left thumb unless I'm shooting a 1911, which requires the right thumb ride the safety. Here is my grip on a Kahr CW9

What do you do so that you can get reasonably quick follow up shots?

Depend on how fast you consider reasonably quick you do have to apply enough pressure with the left hand to prevent the gun separating from your grip.

I usually shoot accurately at about 4-5 rounds per second...the trick is to reset the trigger while you gun is in recoil and release the next shot as your sight land back on your target

 

[10mm Mike]

"...having poor eye sight makes..." That's what glasses are for. All prescription glasses have impact resistant lenses

I was wearing my glasses for some of it, but I didn't want to become reliant on them since I dont wear my glasses when hunting and I lost my contacts. I'm thinking about lasik, at least on my right eye.

I'm a bit confused when you say thumb over thumb...it sounds like your doing it right when you say you are pointing the left thumb forward...but thumb over thumb usually means to me that the left thumb is covering the right thumb.

I think we are thinking of the same thing. When I say thumb over thumb, I mean my left thumb (weak hand) is on top of my right thumb (strong hand), kind of clamping down on it. The only gun I shoot this way is my PA-63 because there isn't enough room to do a thumbs forward grip on it.

4-5 per second is definitely in the reasonably quick category... by my standards anyway

So, instead of the "push/pull" you apply more pressure with your support hand to allow for faster follow-ups? Would you say that you apply more pressure with your support hand than you do with your strong hand? In your picture, are your thumbs making contact with the gun?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Having you left thumb clamping down on your right thumb is part of the cause of the gun walking out of your support hand's grip...it also closes down the pocket of your palm the gun should be in. Wrapping it over your thumb compromises your support grip and will cause the muzzle to flip to the left.

I do apply more pressure with my left hand...maybe twice as much. I teach that the right hand drives the gun while the left hand holds it.

My left thumb is touching the frame of the gun, but not pressing against it, my right thumb is resting on the base of the left thumb and is completely relaxed. It is not that it has to be relaxed, it is an index of proper grip...with a relaxed thumb, you can tighten your right hands grip as you press the trigger. Here's an overhead picture of my grip on a Sig 220ST to show how far my right thumb is from the the side of the gun...my trigger finger is actually applying more pressure than my left thumb

 

[hammerklavier]

It's okay to have a firm grip on the gun -- just so long as you aren't anticipating or fighting recoil. In other words, a firm grip should be out of confidence, not fear.

 

[Nasty]

Rate of fire is a funny thing.

I can do 300-350 rounds per minute (RPM) on a single target at close range easily.

Doing it at effective range (say within an 8" circle at 25 yards just for the heck of it) or on multiple targets is a different matter.

Rates of fire like this at range on multiple targets is pretty much the land of Jerry Miculek or within the Matrix.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Nasty is correct, I should have been more specific.

7 yards, keeping all shots on a 3"x5" card
15 yards, keeping rounds on a 8" paper plate (6" center)
25 yards, keeping rounds on 8"-10" steel plate

 

[S&Wfan]

Hi,

Ummm . . . it depends on what your intentions are.

Firm vs. light? Either can give you CONSISTENT results . . . ummm . . . for firing one bullet out of the barrel only. With a very light grip though, things can radically change in ways that will radically change your speed and accuracy for fast followup shots.

Lots of folks are "plinkers," and this is fine for casual shooting at the range against harmless paper targets that don't move. HOWEVER . . . (and you'll understand this being a hunter) . . .

1. This changes when you are lining up sights with the adrenaline pumping when a big buck is moving through the thickets and you are trying to get sights aligned on a moving target while trying to shoot and miss branches!!! WORSE . . .

2. This changes even more when your moving target is human and he's moving AND trying to kill you before you can shoot him AND he's firing quickly!!! Hmmm . . .


I'd suggest getting some good instruction locally with a teacher who is also a handgun competitor who is used to shooting with extreme accuracy + speed under the pressure of competitions.

Then, I'd suggest you start shooting the competitions too. Sure, at first you'll get waxed but soon you'll learn how to shoot in a way that might just save your life . . . and do it with practical accuracy!

Your symptoms are much too complex to address here, but all are correctable.

 

[BCRider]

9mm raises some nice points. I like and use his info on the support hand having more of the pressure than the strong hand. His "strong hand drives while support hand holds" is a great way of describing it.

I may not have stressed it enough in my explanation but the bit about pushing and pulling is primarily to steady the arm muscles against each other. I found that it tends to hold the sights steadier and groups smaller because the arms are pushing against each other instead of just hanging out freely on their own. Any extra help this provides in holding the gun steadier in the hand grip is just a bonus.

None of this material I provided is mine by the way. I'm far too new a shooter to have developed any of this myself. I've read it in books and online or learned it from other long time shooters and put it all together during a bunch of practice sessions. What I've written as suggestions is the parts that I found helped the most for my own efforts.

And not to blow my own horn (well, not much ) but just last night I got the results from my first IDPA club match. It looks like I got top (lowest) score in SSP and came in second overall. It was only against 10 other shooters so don't think I'm some ace master or anything but it sure made my peacock feathers stand up and my chest stick out a little further when I saw the results....