M-700 here we go again.

[52grain]

I was always taught that safeties are mechanical devices doomed to failure and that the only real safety is the four rules. That said, if a gun goes off when the safety is disengaged, that is poor design and should have been corrected and a recall issued.

But Remington doesn't really listen to users, otherwise they would have started using faster twist rates in their rifle barrels.

 

[CZguy]

no bias, im going to test this.
and the gun will be aimed down range at the gunclub while doing so.

Just a thought........ couldn't you test the function of the safety with a snap cap?

As I understand the problem, when you select fire on some Remington model 700s the gun fires.

 

[unwise11]

i didnt get to go shooting, had some problems with school work ect.
i dont own the rifle, so i cant play with it here.

 

[Oceans]

I certainly trust a Remington 700 of which I have owned many, and over the last 20 odd years without a single problem with the factory trigger and when disengaging the safety. I HAVE adjusted my 700 factory triggers to 50 ounces on the RCBS scale, no slack, no creep, just a crisp let off. I can put the safety lever right between positions, and bang that rifle down on the hard floor, not one AD. You had Remingtons go AD on you, fine, don't trust em then. Millions of other Remington owners still do. I certainly trust the Rem 700 more than I do say a stainless Sako 75, of which they put out an advisory that some of the barrels were splitting. Google that one, better tell you 'customers' not to bring them up to Alaska either.

As far as you refusing to guide anyone with a Remington, well there are other guides that customers can use. I guess with all your experience you don't have to obey hunter safety rules either, driving around with a chambered firearm. Are you like the hotshot in "Blackhawk Down" when asked by the Captain about having a hot weapon in the chow line, at which point the hot shot said, as he pointed to his finger, "This is my safety sir"

 

[JohnBT]

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-modification-program.aspx

"Remington is extending through December 31, 2010, its Safety Modification Program to remove the bolt-lock mechanism from certain Remington bolt-action centerfire firearms made prior to March, 1982. (Post-1982 bolt-action firearms were not manufactured with bolt-lock mechanisms). To determine whether your firearm has a bolt-lock mechanism and is subject to the safety modification program, click on the model listed below and follow the directions included."

 

[LoonWulf]

ahhh i was going to ask about the bolt lock, ive had a number of remingtons but they were all newer and non locked the bolt. That was going to lead to my next question as to why the guns were off safe during ammo removal.....questions answered thanks

 

[H&Hhunter]

As far as you refusing to guide anyone with a Remington, well there are other guides that customers can use. I guess with all your experience you don't have to obey hunter safety rules either, driving around with a chambered firearm. Are you like the hotshot in "Blackhawk Down" when asked by the Captain about having a hot weapon in the chow line, at which point the hot shot said, as he pointed to his finger, "This is my safety sir"

Oceans,

I don't know who you are referring to in this post if it was me you need to seriously consider rereading what I wrote as your post doesn't even come close to correlating with what I wrote.

H&Hhunter wrote

As a guide I WILL NOT allow anybody carrying a M-700 to have it chambered until we are on a critter and ready to shoot.

I didn't say anything about not allowing M-700's.

H&Hhunter wrote.

The issue in the cab of my truck was with a client that I was guiding. I had repeatedly told her to unchamber before getting in the truck and then asked her again her if her weapon was unloaded when we got back to the truck for about the 5th time that day, she flipped the safety off to check and make sure. KABOOM a .308 inside a single cab truck is pretty loud if you've never experienced it. It makes a nice hole too.

Quite a bit different than your version huh?

 

[LoonWulf]

Sorry, to just jump in again. But as asked before, doesnt the Xmark trigger address this issue? If it is adjusted properly it forces the trigger back under the sear in safe position...im under the impression that the issues is that the trigger can move out from under the sear when the saftey is on, thus not catching the sear when it is snaped off.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Loon,

I don't know.

 

[LoonWulf]

ahh ok, thanks. It looks to me that it would, but i dont have a full understanding of whats going wrong.

 

[skiking]

It's kind of hard to know what to say about a comment like that. But it makes want to never hunt on public land ever again.

All it is, is a realization that the safety doesn't make a gun safe. Keep the thing pointed in a safe direction, if the gun fires when you take the safety off, it is no big deal because it was pointed in a safe direction.

 

[jmr40]

No one may get hurt if the gun fires while pointed in a safe direction, but it is still a big deal.

The Remington trigger problem is well documented but I'm always surprised that so few people know about it. Changing the safety to allow the gun to be unloaded while on safe did not really address the problem. I've known of guys who had the gun fire at the range when they disengaged the safety. I would be pretty upset if the gun fired before I was ready when hunting even if no one was hurt.

I've used mostly Remington 700's for the last 35 years so I'm not anti-Remington . In the last 10 years or so I have come to prefer other rifles better, but would still use one.

The rifles do this just often enough to cause concern, but not often enough to say for sure what the problem is. The Remington loyal will tell you it is only with rifles that have had the triggers adjusted incorrectly. I know for a fact that it has happened to rifles that have never had the triggers touched. Mine have never done it when loaded, but I have had mine dry fire, 2-3 times over the last 35 years when the safety was disengaged.

Another theory is that dirt and crud get into the trigger mechanism and cause the problem. Maybe so, but I still consider this a design flaw. No other rifles seem to have this problem.

 

[CZguy]

I bought a Remington model 700 ADL in 1971 that I have used every year since that has never had a problem. A good friend bought a 700 BDL in 1978 and it has had a unwanted discharge when he selected the safety to fire. I know for a fact that he never adjusted the trigger on this rifle. I'm very disappointed to hear that Remington's "fix" is to allow you to unload the rifle before selecting the safety to the fire position.

Will installing an aftermarket trigger solve the problem?

 

[Oceans]

Ah, Mr. H&H Hunter,

I'll clarify my earlier post. You were driving around with a chambered firearm in your vehicle when an AD occurred, as you have admitted, and others have pointed out. It makes no matter that you 'told' the client repeatedly to unchamber it. The fact is that you as a professional guide let, intentionally or otherwise, a chambered rifle get into the cab of your truck after you had a concern that that might occur. This is not in dispute. You claim to have a vast amount of experience in your field, and I don't doubt that you do. What you should have done, if you had such great concern about this Remington, was to physically inspect the chamber of the client's weapon prior to it being placed in your vehicle. You certainly would have been in bounds to have requested the client that you be allowed to do so. So What I mentioned about you driving around with a chambered weapon is not so 'different' from what you posted.

Now as far as your policy regarding clients who wish to bring Remingtons to your guiding service for a hunt in Colorado. You have made it quite well known that you have nothing but derision for the weapon. As you wrote here

Absolutely an unacceptable solution to this problem. I carry chambered anytime I am in the field and hunting. When jump shooting game as I often do having to chamber a round means a lost opportunity. How about carrying in DG country like thick alders in Alaska. You'd be an idiot not to carry chambered. Making this rifle less than worthless to me

Now I'm sure when perspective clients contact you, and ask questions about your kit recommendations, lol Remington use is frowned on rather conspicuously. So in all but your written policy, Remingtons are a no starter with your service.

Now again, you don't have to like Remingtons(700s), allow them in your guiding service, or what not. You do though, should understand that there are millions of Remingtons used successfully year in year out without an AD. So I do find your emphatically implied notion that the 700 is an unsafe hunting arm is flawed.

 

[Art Eatman]

Oceans, it strikes me as normal for a client to obey the guide in that sort of instruction. It further would seem normal that the guide would assume (whee-word) that the client would obey. Even a casual mention generally suffices, 99.99% of the time. Sounds like H&H got stuck with Ms. 0.01%. Bummer.

And never forget: It's not the odds, it's the stakes. A million to one odds doesn't mean boo-diddly if The One = You.

Seems to me that the bottom line of this entire thread is to make a point of testing the operation of the safety on any rifle, no matter what brand or when it was made. Regardless of ultimate liability on the part of the factory, the day-to-day responsibility is the owner's.

 

[52grain]

Seems to me that the bottom line of this entire thread is to make a point of testing the operation of the safety on any rifle, no matter what brand or when it was made. Regardless of ultimate liability on the part of the factory, the day-to-day responsibility is the owner's.

Personal responsibility. Mr. Eatman, you're always a breath of fresh air.

 

[bhp9mm]

its was the older guns not the newer ones

 

[JohnBT]

"You were driving around with a chambered firearm in your vehicle when an AD occurred, as you have admitted"

He didn't say they were driving around. Maybe they were, but what he said was

"and then asked her again her if her weapon was unloaded when we got back to the truck for about the 5th time that day, she flipped the safety off to check and make sure. KABOOM "

From his statements, we don't know for a fact that he was even in the truck. Or that the engine was running. Or that it was in gear.

All we know is... " asked her again her if her weapon was unloaded when we got back to the truck"

See?

 

[Leaky Waders]

Hmm it would be nice to know what was changed to fix the issue in later models. Maybe one of the gun smiths on the forum would chime in.

Oh, and I didn't realize that you guided H&H! I only shoot one remiington product - a 28 gauge wingmaster but my rifles are all non-remington (one son does have a model 700 223 bolt action in the safe though).

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Is that the rem 700 adl

 

[Uncle Mike]

The Remington loyal will tell you it is only with rifles that have had the triggers adjusted incorrectly. I know for a fact that it has happened to rifles that have never had the triggers touched.

Problem is, some of the triggers that 'failed' came right from the manufacturer like that!

Seems to me that the bottom line of this entire thread is to make a point of testing the operation of the safety on any rifle, no matter what brand or when it was made. Regardless of ultimate liability on the part of the factory, the day-to-day responsibility is the owner's.

Right you are....just as you might check the oil daily in the old truck, you should check the 'safety' of your rifle every time using it. Problem is, it may be good now, but fail 10 minutes from now, but that's life.

You can see the sear and its engagement depth through a hole in the side of the Remington trigger group(newer), you can always put an eye on it, and if it looks particularly thin, question Remington about it!

 

[Coal Dragger]

An even simpler solution is to just avoid buying a Remington M700 and instead buy a rifle with reliable components.

 

[rickomatic]

1st hand experience. Brother got a "new" used Rem 700 in 7mm mag for father's day. He's going hunting with me for the first time in 20+ years. Yesterday we went to the range t sight it in. After getting it bore sighted and on the paper after not hitting paper in a couple shots we proceeded to walk the shots to POI that we wanted. This range is one that allows only one round loaded at a time. So....open bolt....insert round.....close blot...aim.....fire.....eject round....rinse and repeat as needed. Well, after a couple more rounds, he was closing the bolt on one, and KABOOM! We both looked at each other and went ***???
This happened 2 more times in the next 8 rounds or so. Well, we got it zeroed so went home to investigate.
The pull on that thing could have been measured in ounces! I looked up how to adjust it and we reset it to a couple pounds. Hope that fixes it. But in the meantime, we're both a bit antsy about it. I think I'll load up a bunch of primer only rounds and cycle them through to see if that thing holds. Sheesh.

 

[Maverick223]

I have never had a problem with a M-700 doing this but have heard enough reports of such incidents to be wary of the condition. I always chocked it up to poor trigger adjustment, but it is good to note that it may be present in new rifles as well. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, H&H.

FWIW, I too prefer a good 'ole Mauser, however I have a couple (commercial type with bolt locking 2-pos. side safeties, similar to the old Rem. type) with sear type safeties and if adjusted incorrectly they will fire when switched. When adjusting the trigger I adjust until the aforementioned condition is present, then work myself back to a safe condition and add a good factor of safety (and perhaps even more for a crisp but noticeable pull weight). I have never encountered a problem with either of these Mausers...then again, I have come to expect that degree of reliability out of a Mauser.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Oh, and I didn't realize that you guided H&H!

LW,

I don't guide general clients anymore. Not meaning to sound too high brow here, but I only guide on request for select clients (read trusted friends) and some industry folks.

I don't have the time or the energy to outfit as a full time business anymore like I used to.

Pick up a copy of the July 2010 issue Rifle Magazine. See if you can figure out which article I'm featured in.. It shouldn't be to tough.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To all of you who appreciated this bit of crucial safety information about the M-700 I am glad that I was able to educate at least a few more hunters. My point being that if you are using a M-700 you need to be hyper aware of the distinct possibility of the weapon discharging on safety release.

That's it there is no other hidden top secret agenda on my part.

As far as my personal preference I can't stand M-700's. I won't own them. My preferences and opinions are just that mine, YOU are of course free to shoot any rifle you want as long as you keep those muzzles pointed in a safe direction it doesn't bother me a bit.