M1 Carbine use in WWII?

[JohnKSa]

Kurush,

Maybe they're saying it failed to penetrate the clothing after bouncing off the ground in front of the soldiers...

I've always thought that the majority of combat reports regarding the ineffectiveness of this or that weapon were simply a matter of the universal ineffectiveness of MISSING.

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

now comes the true question how much does one go for now days doesnt have to be one that is actully a war relic but jsut a regular gun i saw one two days ago at my local gun shop and decided i wanted one but he had sold out he guy was littlerly walking out the door with it as i got there and i also heard it came in another caliber 256 is this true?

 

[Charlie Oldphart]

M1 Carbine? Has its place, but not at my place!

Hi Folks,

Congratulations to all the members and moderators for producing this forum! It's a pleasure to read and learn what is happening in the gun world.

I have been lurking and learning about such rounds as 10mm, 9mm,.40, 41 Mag, etc. These weren't even available during my early years, so I don't have any input as yet.

Then, behold! Up comes a thread about the M1 carbine and that weapon, I do know something about. Now, I'm getting a little long in the tooth and sometime my memory is not as good as it used to be, however somethings you just don't forget.

Let me take you back to Korea, December 1950. (No, I wasn't a Marine breaking out of the Chosin Resevoir). I was an Army grunt rifleman on the front lines and spent as much time moving backwards as moving forward. The lines were very fluid and "intelligence" was always a day behind.

I speak of only this one experience. Doubtless there are many other Korean vets who might or might not share their experiences. We were dug in as much as possible. Bitter cold and dark. I was 19 and hadn't even seen an enemy soldier except at long distance. I had never been shot at before.
The night attack started and the flares went up and all I could see were enemy soldiers coming straight toward us. I had been issued the standard M1 Garand was comfortable with it and started firing. At that point the LT came down the line and was killed immediately right next to me. As I look back I am ashamed to say that I "lost" it and froze. I was so frightened that I thought this was the end. Someone near me hollered "Fire, damn you, fire". I had fired the first clip and tried to reload a second, but I was so scared and was shaking so badly I just couldn't load it. I picked up the LTs M1 Carbine and started shooting at the nearest enemy about 30-40 yards away.

Now, I'm sure that you have heard stories about the M1 Carbine not having enough power to penetrate the enemy's winter clothing, All I know is that I hit this fellow at least three times, and I could see the pieces of padding coming off from his jacket. He didn't even slow down. He was still coming. I think he was out of ammo, but still had a mean looking bayonet. About then I hear brrrrrrup and his forward motion stopped immediately. The attack was beaten off and we were ordered to advance to the rear by "higher intelligence" in the morning.

Meanwhile, my squad sergeant asked me what the hell I was doing the that g*ddamned tinkertoy. I was too embarrassed and scared to even give him a proper answer. He had been the one who stopped my man with a .45 cal "grease gun". Needless to say, I became a believer.

I'm sure the M1 Carbine did a wonderful job and saved many lives when used in the proper situations. However, on the front lines of Korea, in my opinion, when your life is on the line, I'll take the Garand or a .45 Grease gun, thank you. I was very lucky. I was never shot or even wounded, but I did give up a couple of toes due to frostbite.

May God bless all those vets, especially that hell hole in Vietnam for keeping us folks at home safe.

Thanks for letting an oldphart ramble. God's blessings on you and yours.

Charlie

 

[BaiscInfantry]

The M1 was....

Developed for personal defense like some of you said but it was for non-combat personal who were stationed in dangerous areas and for officers. but as the war went on it kinda became like the thompson. Not officially handed out but people just had them. Battlefield pick-ups they called them.

 

[HankB]

My late father carried a carbine for a short time in WWII. He told me a story about how he and a buddy were walking along a jungle path on some Pacific island and encountered a Jap officer coming the other way. When the Jap turned and ran, my dad and his buddy opened up on him.

The Jap disappeared around a bend. The two GIs reloaded and cautiously followed. They found a blood trail, so they continued until they found the enemy officer dead, propped up against a tree . . . he'd been hit through the torso 11 times and still ran quite some distance before he bled out.

Informal ballistic testing showed that the round from an M1 Carbine wouldn't knock a coconut off a palm tree . . . a .45 would, and a round from a Garand would normally burst the coconut wide open.

Dad got himself a Garand, and, shortly afterwards, a Thompson.

 

[Frandy]

Welcome Charlie

Nothing like a first-hand report from someone who was there. Great post! Oh, and as hell-holes go, they stuck you in a good one too...Korea!

And as for my carbine...it's a fun plinker and of course, a firearm that can do great harm here in the civilian world of 2005, but yer right...a 30-06 or brrrrp of .45s will certain do the job more confidently.

Oh, and thanks for serving our nation. I was impressed by your honest account rather than the all too common bravado that wannabes spew about what they would do here, what they would do there...as if mortal combat is some kind of game.

Frandy, who served but never faced an enemy (well, there was this mean-ass first sargeant... )

 

[Crosshair]

Thank you for the input Charlie Oldphart. If you don't mind me asking. Are there any other stories you wish to share?

 

[popeye]

I've got an M1 carbine. It's Inland marked, I believe the most common. It has a bayonet lug. My understanding is WWII carbines didn't have a bayo lug. Is that true? So maybe mine's a reissue for Korea? I thought most Korean carbines were M2's. Or mine could be a morphadite rebuild. I've got the original scared up stock, and a refinished one off an Inland thats currently on it.

 

[rbernie]

I was of the impression from reading some of the stories from Merrill's Raiders that they preferred the carbine's penetration capabilities over the 45ACP Thompsons'.

???

 

[Coronach]

My grandfather has an opinion about the M1 Carbine, as he does about everything else. His thoughts?

"M1 in the country, Thompson in the city. Carbine? Never liked it much."

Of course, he was a rifleman, so it was not like he was humping around other gear or ducking in and out of tanks and trucks all the time.

Mike

 

[DSG]

Dad was a rifleman and also a medic in the southern Philippines. He carried a Garand part of the time and a Carbine also. Never talked about it much. His only carbine story was an accidental discharge in formation one day. He told me that in 1966 as we were bringing home the Winchester M1 Carbine he'd just bought at a gunshow after much nagging from me. I was never sure if it was true or he was just cautioning me to be careful. He said he never saw a (live)Jap soldier though he did admit to seeing dead ones. Said he never saw any combat. Mom once told me that he'd had a bullet crease his collar and kill the guy behind him. Several other stories overheard over the years lead me to believe he just didn't want to talk about it. When I got interested in guns at age ten, he started looking for a Garand on his own and bought one in 65-66. I had to nag him to get the carbine.

Once while at the range during my high school years with Dad's carbine, an man about my Dads age stopped and looked over my shoulder. He said "I had one of those on Iwo Jima. I picked it up from a guy who'd been hit because I was tired of carrying that damned heavy Garand. I never regretted anything so much in my life". Then he walked away with no further explanation and I was too timid a kid to ask.

 

[straightShot]

My dad got rid of his carbine for a Thompson. The carbine wasn't the best choice for knock-down power fighting Japs in the jungle. The Thompson worked just fine.

To add to an earlier post, he said that the Marines always just showed up for the cameras...

 

[Tony Williams]

It was largely the effectiveness in battle of the M1 Carbine in city and close quarters ranges that inspired the Germans to develop something similar, and this is where we got what we refer to today as the Assault Rifle. That was actually Hitler's name for what his engineers developed in imitation of the little Carbine. So we can thank the little Carbine for the modern concept of Assault Rifles.

The Germans were working on short rifle ammo prewar, and the 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge used in the German assault rifles was developed by Polte in 1938. The contract for the design of the first assault rifle to use this ammo was awarded to Haenel in 1939 and the first prototypes were tested in the front line in 1942. I doubt that the Germans even saw any M1 Carbines until 1943.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[RON in PA]

Back around 1960 I was an undergraduate taking Army ROTC. One of my instructors was an old sargent that had seen action in France in WW2 . Most of the time he told stories about French whorehouses, but one lecture he did mention a situation where our troops were shooting at Germans in a stoutly constructed house with carbines. Problem was they were not penetrating the walls with the carbine ammo. They managed to get a Garand and that solved the problem. Penetration is very important in combat situations.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The Germans were working on short rifle ammo prewar, and the 7.92x33 Kurz cartridge used in the German assault rifles was developed by Polte in 1938. The contract for the design of the first assault rifle to use this ammo was awarded to Haenel in 1939 and the first prototypes were tested in the front line in 1942. I doubt that the Germans even saw any M1 Carbines until 1943.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

They may have researched such things, but the impetus to begin producing working models and issuing them to troops didn't happen until well after they had received reports on the Carbine's effectiveness. This is what was reported, at any rate, in a History Channel documentary on the M1 Carbine. Naturally, I cannot vouch for its accuracy beyond that.

 

[Tony Williams]

They may have researched such things, but the impetus to begin producing working models and issuing them to troops didn't happen until well after they had received reports on the Carbine's effectiveness. This is what was reported, at any rate, in a History Channel documentary on the M1 Carbine. Naturally, I cannot vouch for its accuracy beyond that.

Exactly how would they have received reports of the M1 Carbine's effectiveness in mid-1942 when the first of about 10,000 Haenel MKb 42(H) assault rifles were issued to troops? These were joined by the Walther MKb 42(W) in late 1942. The result of these large-scale troop tests was the MP 43 of 1943, which continued in production for the rest of the war, with minor modifications and name changes to MP 43 then Stg 43.

The first .30 Carbines were delivered in mid-1942, at the same time as the MKb 42(H); and then only in the semi-automatic M1 version, which very definitely does not meet the requirements of an assault rifle. The full-auto M2, which comes closer, was issued later and only in small numbers.

I don't get the History Channel but I've read enough comments about the accuracy of its programmes not to take what they say too seriously.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Kurush]

I was watching Mail Call a few weeks ago on the History Channel, and R. Lee Ermey was shooting a MP44. At the end of the segment, he mentioned that the common belief that the AK-47 is an MP44 copy is a myth... it's the SKS that's a copy!

I don't know what they're smoking over there but they need to do some fact checking on the things the neighbor's dog is whispering to them.

 

[briang2ad]

What of this article?

I found this surfing, and while it makes some fairly subjective opinions, it does make a case for not dismissing the little carbine for a close in fight:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_47/ai_74033105

What say you?

Thanks.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I found this surfing, and while it makes some fairly subjective opinions, it does make a case for not dismissing the little carbine for a close in fight:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_47/ai_74033105

What say you?

Thanks.

Excellent article. I wholeheartedly agree with these statements in it:

For defensive fighting purposes typically encountered by police and armed civilians, an AR-15 or one of its better clones is perhaps preferable to the M1 carbine, if both are used with expanding bullet ammunition. However, the M1 carbine with expanding bullet ammunition is more effective than any .223 rifle loaded with GI hardball or any submachine gun or semiautomatic pistol-caliber carbine on the market. The M1 carbine is that good!

and

Something else in the M1 carbine's favor compared to all the submachine guns and rifles based on military assault rifles, is that it is relatively innocuous looking. Police do not like to be perceived as storm troopers, and the M1 carbine is much less likely to cause that impression than an AR-15 or an MP5.

I recently picked up an M1 Carbine (1944 Inland receiver with post-war rebuild features) and I love it. It has become my home defense rifle, for all the reasons listed in the article. It won't replace my 1911's (for when I need a handgun), or my .308 rifles, but it is perfect for home security. Another reason not mentioned in the article is that its small size and weight, traditional appearance and light recoil makes it very friendly to women and new shooters. My M1 carbine is one of only two rifles of mine that my wife actually enjoys shooting (the other is a pistol caliber lever action).

 

[Tony Williams]

I found this surfing, and while it makes some fairly subjective opinions, it does make a case for not dismissing the little carbine for a close in fight:

What say you?

The key phrase in that document for me is "With proper ammunition, the M1 carbine can easily compete in effectiveness with .223-chambered weapons out to at least 150 yards"

The standard military ball round had a patchy reputation in combat, but expanding bullets are a different matter.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Father Knows Best]

Incidentally, my father-in-law was visiting me over the last few days. He was in the Air Force in the 1960s, and told me that he trained and qualified annually with the M1 carbine. He recalls being trained on the AR in 1967, but never saw one again after that training session.

He was stationed at a now-decommissioned air base somewhere in Illinois (I can't remember the name). During the 1967 riots in Detroit, his unit (and many others) were sent to Detroit to provide security. They were equipped with M1 carbines, but they weren't the only ones. He told me that every Detroit police officer he saw there had an M1 carbine slung across his back. They were low on .30 carbine ammo, so my father-in-law and his buddies gave them a lot of it. In exchange, the Detroit LEOs let the Air Force guys shoot their .38 revolvers.

 

[Daedalus]

Exactly how would they have received reports of the M1 Carbine's effectiveness in mid-1942 when the first of about 10,000 Haenel MKb 42(H) assault rifles were issued to troops? These were joined by the Walther MKb 42(W) in late 1942. The result of these large-scale troop tests was the MP 43 of 1943, which continued in production for the rest of the war, with minor modifications and name changes to MP 43 then Stg 43.

The first .30 Carbines were delivered in mid-1942, at the same time as the MKb 42(H); and then only in the semi-automatic M1 version, which very definitely does not meet the requirements of an assault rifle. The full-auto M2, which comes closer, was issued later and only in small numbers.

I don't get the History Channel but I've read enough comments about the accuracy of its programmes not to take what they say too seriously.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

I was interested by what you posted here and did a little more searching and found this: http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february00.html

Very interesting read regarding development of the StG 44 and I think it conclusively shows that the M! Carbine was not the inspiration for it.

 

[TrapperReady]

My dad fought an an infantryman in the 14th Armored Division from Sept 1944 through the end of the war. While he shipped over as a PFC, by early 1945 he had received a battlefield commision. At that time, he was informed that officers were to carry either a pistol and an M1 Garand, or an M1 carbine. Since there were no pistols available (most had gone to the tank crews), he was forced to trade in his Garand for the carbine. Within a couple weeks, he "lost" the carbine on a patrol and picked up a Garand, which he used from then on.

 

[critter]

When I was young and in college, I worked with a guy about my age. He was just getting into deer hunting and had fired a friend's M1 carbine. He decided it, with it's 15 round mag, was the very thing he needed to deer hunt with as he could just 'mow them all down'! He talked about it incessantly until, one day, someone mentioned that another, older guy known to us as 'unk' (short for unkle) who worked with us was a WWII vet and had been in Germany and might know about the carbine.

When asked, unk simply said, 'waaal, son, all's I know is that hit ain't worth a DAMN for killing Germans'!

He never got his carbine.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I suspect that a lot of the criticism of the M1 carbine stems from the fact that it was being compared in terms of effectiveness to the M1 Garand. That's like complaining that your minivan doesn't tow as well as a Kenworth. Of course it doesn't, but it was never intended to. I'd sure don't want to commute to work in a Kenworth, though.

The M1 carbine is very, very good for many purposes, and not so good for others. When you need a full size and full power rifle, such as for shooting large or dangerous game at long distances, then carry a full power rifle like a Garand, FAL, etc. For up close and personal work, however, especially, a lightweight carbine can be an excellent choice, whether it's an M1 carbine or a pistol caliber lever action like a Marlin or Winchester.